D&D 5E Charisma Conundrum

[Ashrym]

""It's not that CHA is the entire social pillar so much is that tends to be ""where the active uses are in the social pillar.** CHA, DEX, and STR see a lot of active checks for actions made by the PC's. INT, WIS, and CON are checks more often associated a use in reaction to something else."

You referenced the charisma being where the active uses are and the context seemed to be dismissing the other actives uses in that pillar... so not technically " only" but clearly leaning into " only ones that vount."

Now, if you are now saying that your intent was to spotlight how much the others did matter and count, as opposed to trying to make it look like the charisma ones were the ones that mattered, then that's quite a swerve.

If however, you want to play catch- phrase where you make a point about charisma being not necessarily "only" but some other phrase for it, then fine.

Is your intended point that the other stats matter enough in the social pillar or thst thry font and really it's only charisma that mstter gor the active uses and that you find thsat a problem?

Or was this just word-pixeling?

If so, if its word-pixeling, then I will rephrase...

"If your social pillar sees other stat checks but not enough active uses except for those of charisma, thatis a statement about the type of social challenge scenes and the complexity of them being presented, not the rules or system. "

A robust social chsllenge should be more than charisma checks and the actual rules support that- unless the GM chooses to present cases where the others are not possible or necessary.

My intended point was the PHB gives a list of uses for those ability scores. I agreed that the CHA is not the entire social pillar but that perception exists because of which checks are predicated by the players and which checks are predicated by the DM's. I started with "It's not that CHA is the entire social pillar..."

When you said...

"If your social pillar only sees active uses of charisma, that is a statement about the type of social challenge scenes and the complexity of them being presented, not the rules or system. "

… it looked like you were putting words into my mouth because in the exchange between the two of us you were the only one who made a statement about the social pillar only seeing active uses of charisma. I said "tends to" because that's where things tend to go. I had never said it was the only active check and have given examples of active insight checks in the past because I think it's an important skill in the social pillar.

CHA's 3 active skills (plus perform but that doesn't seem a common priorit) see a lot more use than actively using insight, investigation, or perception in social encounters. I'd argue the two egotists showing off how smart they are and competing against each with history checks let's someone apply INT actively to social encounters.

That ability to also use other ability scores hasn't changed the prominence of using active CHA checks.

 

[Ashrym]

Regarding tome warlock vs wizard for ritual casting, I find the campaign and DM make a difference. Warlocks can find the wizard scrolls and books just as easily as the wizard can, and even NPC wizards are found in adventures. One would assume they have spell books with rituals. Published adventures have them.

Warlock's going tome hoard anything with the ability to add rituals to their book and have a could of levels to build up beyond the two rituals with which they start.

Book of ancient secrets also grants the warlock the ritual caster ability. This allows casting warlock spells known as rituals too, instead of just slots. That's a very small list: unseen servant, illusory script, comprehend languages, contact other plane. Unseen servant is worth learning (IMO) if the warlock is planning on going tome at 3rd, and not if going any other pact (rely on mage hand instead).

That actually gives 3 rituals plus anything saved by going with the tome. Unseen servant can be cast as a ritual or normally in a pinch.

@5ekyu: Wizards can cast rituals normally or as rituals only if they take the hit on spells prepped over something else. I don't recall seeing any wizard do that at lower levels over going for a wider range of non-ritual spells prepped. They might later on when they have more preparations but I find they just rely on the rituals in the books. Clerics and druids are required to prep the rituals before they can cast them; they can always choose to cast as a ritual or normally. Bards are required to learn spells and can also always cast their spells as rituals or normally. The point I'm making is wizards don't have to prep the rituals to cast them so they don't normally bother prepping them at all.

Between the two I prefer the reliability of the wizard adding rituals as they level up. I think the warlock overtakes the wizard in the long run.

 

[5ekyu]

Regarding tome warlock vs wizard for ritual casting, I find the campaign and DM make a difference. Warlocks can find the wizard scrolls and books just as easily as the wizard can, and even NPC wizards are found in adventures. One would assume they have spell books with rituals. Published adventures have them.

Warlock's going tome hoard anything with the ability to add rituals to their book and have a could of levels to build up beyond the two rituals with which they start.

Book of ancient secrets also grants the warlock the ritual caster ability. This allows casting warlock spells known as rituals too, instead of just slots. That's a very small list: unseen servant, illusory script, comprehend languages, contact other plane. Unseen servant is worth learning (IMO) if the warlock is planning on going tome at 3rd, and not if going any other pact (rely on mage hand instead).

That actually gives 3 rituals plus anything saved by going with the tome. Unseen servant can be cast as a ritual or normally in a pinch.

@5ekyu: Wizards can cast rituals normally or as rituals only if they take the hit on spells prepped over something else. I don't recall seeing any wizard do that at lower levels over going for a wider range of non-ritual spells prepped. They might later on when they have more preparations but I find they just rely on the rituals in the books. Clerics and druids are required to prep the rituals before they can cast them; they can always choose to cast as a ritual or normally. Bards are required to learn spells and can also always cast their spells as rituals or normally. The point I'm making is wizards don't have to prep the rituals to cast them so they don't normally bother prepping them at all.

Between the two I prefer the reliability of the wizard adding rituals as they level up. I think the warlock overtakes the wizard in the long run.

At 3rd level, after spending an invocation on the book and taking pact of the yome, the warlock has 5 known cantrips, 4 known spells 2 slots @2nd level plus 2 more castings per short rest. They also have two free rituals in the book.

The wizard has 3 known cantrips, 10 known spells, expected to have 6 prepared, 4 1st level slots, two 2nd level slots and recovering another 2 levels of slots on a short rest.

So the position that the warlock's ability to take one of his four known spells as one of its four Warlock rituals so that they can cast it directly not using the ritual book when the Wizard has *six * prepared spells and can just the same choose one of them or more as a ritual - that foes not seem to be a plus for the warlock.

Warlock has four known that can change one at level up. Wizard has six prepped out of ten known and can change the six after a long rest.

Sorry but that comparison does not favor at all the warlock.

Look, you have your mind made up and that is fantastic. To me, its gonna be much more a case where the wizard is not second fiddle to the warlock at any tier -especislly in rituals. That's what my experience has shown. But on top of thst, in my experience, the wizard is much less dependent on "setting" and GM. A wizard can be strong even if they almost never find a scroll or spellbook. Your ritual tomelock not do much.

As for your emphasis on the benefits of Charisma over Int, because I se plenty of need for active uses of investigation and insight in the social tiers (per DMG systems - again -changing attitude is not a Charisma thing - its insight or gaining info and using it - and shifts DCs by 10 to 20 points for the eventual check) and see plenty of gains from knowledge skills and investigation in the ecxploration challenges- I do not see a significant "failing" in value between those. If, in your gsmes, the gains from having a 16 Charisma and proficiencies proves to be a significant edge over having a 16 int and proficiencies overall - that is a facet of the campaign, not the system.

I am not arguing the warlock is bad, just strongly disagreeing that it's better at any tier or at rituals.

 

[Zardnaar]

At 3rd level, after spending an invocation on the book and taking pact of the yome, the warlock has 5 known cantrips, 4 known spells 2 slots @2nd level plus 2 more castings per short rest. They also have two free rituals in the book.

The wizard has 3 known cantrips, 10 known spells, expected to have 6 prepared, 4 1st level slots, two 2nd level slots and recovering another 2 levels of slots on a short rest.

So the position that the warlock's ability to take one of his four known spells as one of its four Warlock rituals so that they can cast it directly not using the ritual book when the Wizard has *six * prepared spells and can just the same choose one of them or more as a ritual - that foes not seem to be a plus for the warlock.

Warlock has four known that can change one at level up. Wizard has six prepped out of ten known and can change the six after a long rest.

Eventually the wizard does end up better than warlock. When that is will vary by campaign but it's definitive by level 13-15 IMHO.

Assuming the wizard is slight better at low levels with rituals they're still outclassed in combat and social pillars and the tomelock can also pick up guidance.

So the warlock IMHO is better overall low levels.

I think they're probably better through to level 8 or so and from say 10 you can make the arguement the wizard is better (it's definitive in a few more levels).

It takes a wizard a while to ramp up similar to fighter and rogue level 7-8 being generous (ymmv due to short rests).

But most games don't get to high level and a few classes peak level 2-6, wizards not one of them.

Ignoring thing like ,5MWD or lack of short rests which penalizes the warlock but both are ymmv type scenarios.

 

[Ashrym]

At 3rd level, after spending an invocation on the book and taking pact of the yome, the warlock has 5 known cantrips, 4 known spells 2 slots @2nd level plus 2 more castings per short rest. They also have two free rituals in the book.

The wizard has 3 known cantrips, 10 known spells, expected to have 6 prepared, 4 1st level slots, two 2nd level slots and recovering another 2 levels of slots on a short rest.

So the position that the warlock's ability to take one of his four known spells as one of its four Warlock rituals so that they can cast it directly not using the ritual book when the Wizard has *six * prepared spells and can just the same choose one of them or more as a ritual - that foes not seem to be a plus for the warlock.

Warlock has four known that can change one at level up. Wizard has six prepped out of ten known and can change the six after a long rest.

It's not a plus for the warlock. I'm saying what a wizard can do is not what a wizard will do in that example.

It's far easier to acquire rituals on wizard, no doubt about it. I was illustrating what the tome warlock can do. I think picking up unseen servant at 3rd level is worth it because the other 3 spells know will cover the slots well enough and unseen servant is a good spell as a ritual.

As for the rituals themselves, it 3 rituals vs whatever rituals the wizard added by leveling. Which spells do you think the wizard chose (all the spells) via class at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level? He had 6 at 1st level, 8 at 2nd level, and 10 at 3rd level. He either has 1 2nd-level ritual, 2 2nd-level rituals and no other spells, 0 2nd-level rituals. TBF, the warlock has 0 2nd-level rituals.

My example of the warlock has the warlock spending 1 spell known on a ritual and gains 2 rituals for free. 3 rituals guaranteed, all 1st-level. Your example of the wizard has the opportunity to have more rituals, but how many does he actually take? What 2nd-level spells did he actually learn? Gentle repose, magic mouth, and skywrite are the only 2nd-level wizard spells with the ritual tag. They do not take priority over a lot of other 2nd-level wizard spells. Magic mouth is the only one I would consider, and probably not until 4th level.

There are 8 1st-level wizard rituals from which to choose: alarm, comprehend languages, detect magic, find familiar, identify, illusory script, tensor's floating disc, and unseen servant. The tome warlock is already taking unseen servant and will add find familiar. It's not likely the warlock is taking ceremony, detect poison and disease, or purify food and drink; he might take speak with animals because it's easier to find wizard books than bard/druid scrolls.

Unless the wizard is spending half or more of the 1st-level spells he has in his book specifically on rituals they have about the same. What's left after unseen servant and find familiar +1 more isn't a big deal. I do like to take comprehend languages, identify, and detect magic. Identify and detect magic are for flavor and convenience because of the default rules on identifying magic items.

It's 5th level when 3rd-level rituals become available the that warlock hopes he's found some good stuff.

As for the prepared spells, 6 vs 4 gives room for the cantrip, sure. What spells does your wizard prep, then? He just added 2 2nd-level spells, so he's taking those 2, so he's prepping 4 1st-level spells and your argument is one of them is a ritual. Which one? Not find familiar. Maybe unseen servant but either example can cast that as a spell or ritual so then what? I don't think any of those other rituals is likely to needed to be cast normally as opposed to a ritual, except maybe detect magic as a fringe case.

The reliability to add rituals during leveling is easier. The tome warlock can exceed the wizard sooner or later. If anyone thinks grabbing a ritual off the cleric or druid lists is important that advantage exists at 3rd level.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's not a plus for the warlock. I'm saying what a wizard can do is not what a wizard will do in that example.

It's far easier to acquire rituals on wizard, no doubt about it. I was illustrating what the tome warlock can do. I think picking up unseen servant at 3rd level is worth it because the other 3 spells know will cover the slots well enough and unseen servant is a good spell as a ritual.

As for the rituals themselves, it 3 rituals vs whatever rituals the wizard added by leveling. Which spells do you think the wizard chose (all the spells) via class at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level? He had 6 at 1st level, 8 at 2nd level, and 10 at 3rd level. He either has 1 2nd-level ritual, 2 2nd-level rituals and no other spells, 0 2nd-level rituals. TBF, the warlock has 0 2nd-level rituals.

My example of the warlock has the warlock spending 1 spell known on a ritual and gains 2 rituals for free. 3 rituals guaranteed, all 1st-level. Your example of the wizard has the opportunity to have more rituals, but how many does he actually take? What 2nd-level spells did he actually learn? Gentle repose, magic mouth, and skywrite are the only 2nd-level wizard spells with the ritual tag. They do not take priority over a lot of other 2nd-level wizard spells. Magic mouth is the only one I would consider, and probably not until 4th level.

There are 8 1st-level wizard rituals from which to choose: alarm, comprehend languages, detect magic, find familiar, identify, illusory script, tensor's floating disc, and unseen servant. The tome warlock is already taking unseen servant and will add find familiar. It's not likely the warlock is taking ceremony, detect poison and disease, or purify food and drink; he might take speak with animals because it's easier to find wizard books than bard/druid scrolls.

Unless the wizard is spending half or more of the 1st-level spells he has in his book specifically on rituals they have about the same. What's left after unseen servant and find familiar +1 more isn't a big deal. I do like to take comprehend languages, identify, and detect magic. Identify and detect magic are for flavor and convenience because of the default rules on identifying magic items.

It's 5th level when 3rd-level rituals become available the that warlock hopes he's found some good stuff.

As for the prepared spells, 6 vs 4 gives room for the cantrip, sure. What spells does your wizard prep, then? He just added 2 2nd-level spells, so he's taking those 2, so he's prepping 4 1st-level spells and your argument is one of them is a ritual. Which one? Not find familiar. Maybe unseen servant but either example can cast that as a spell or ritual so then what? I don't think any of those other rituals is likely to needed to be cast normally as opposed to a ritual, except maybe detect magic as a fringe case.

The reliability to add rituals during leveling is easier. The tome warlock can exceed the wizard sooner or later. If anyone thinks grabbing a ritual off the cleric or druid lists is important that advantage exists at 3rd level.

This. Some classes are front loaded as well.

 

[5ekyu]

Eventually the wizard does end up better than warlock. When that is will vary by campaign but it's definitive by level 13-15 IMHO.

Assuming the wizard is slight better at low levels with rituals they're still outclassed in combat and social pillars and the tomelock can also pick up guidance.

So the warlock IMHO is better overall low levels.

I think they're probably better through to level 8 or so and from say 10 you can make the arguement the wizard is better (it's definitive in a few more levels).

It takes a wizard a while to ramp up similar to fighter and rogue level 7-8 being generous (ymmv due to short rests).

But most games don't get to high level and a few classes peak level 2-6, wizards not one of them.

Ignoring thing like ,5MWD or lack of short rests which penalizes the warlock but both are ymmv type scenarios.

"Assuming the wizard is slight better at low levels with rituals they're still outclassed in combat and social pillars and the tomelock can also pick up guidance."

That has yet to be proven and does not match my ecxperience. It certainly can be true in some campaigns that any given are significantly or even noticably outclassed in one tier or another based on choices made. I find it interesting that you excluded the exploration pillar.

In most of the game I have ran and more than a few of the ones I have run, the value of the Int based skills and checks from knowledge skills and investigation has not been shown in play by players of PCs to be "second fiddle" in value to the value of Cha-based checks. (Generally I chalk those Int checks into the exploration pillar- actually more discovery but the label is unimportant.)

So, what I see in play is that warlocks compared to wizard tend to match up well and on par for combat pillar, warlocks usually better at social pillar and less at explore due to the focus on Cha vs Int. The net result is relative equality at most any tier. They have profoundly different play experiences however. I can see each appealing to different players.

Not expecting to change your mind, just putting opposing view out there. I personally find the built in fluffery of the warlocks far mor engaging but I find their mechanics and play to fall short of that. But that is just my preference. But, along the same lines, I can provide much the same story basis (patron of yahdee yahdee) for a wizard, get the fluffery I like and the mechanics too, so, it's no problem.

 

[Zardnaar]

"Assuming the wizard is slight better at low levels with rituals they're still outclassed in combat and social pillars and the tomelock can also pick up guidance."

That has yet to be proven and does not match my ecxperience. It certainly can be true in some campaigns that any given are significantly or even noticably outclassed in one tier or another based on choices made. I find it interesting that you excluded the exploration pillar.

In most of the game I have ran and more than a few of the ones I have run, the value of the Int based skills and checks from knowledge skills and investigation has not been shown in play by players of PCs to be "second fiddle" in value to the value of Cha-based checks. (Generally I chalk those Int checks into the exploration pillar- actually more discovery but the label is unimportant.)

So, what I see in play is that warlocks compared to wizard tend to match up well and on par for combat pillar, warlocks usually better at social pillar and less at explore due to the focus on Cha vs Int. The net result is relative equality at most any tier. They have profoundly different play experiences however. I can see each appealing to different players.

Not expecting to change your mind, just putting opposing view out there. I personally find the built in fluffery of the warlocks far mor engaging but I find their mechanics and play to fall short of that. But that is just my preference. But, along the same lines, I can provide much the same story basis (patron of yahdee yahdee) for a wizard, get the fluffery I like and the mechanics too, so, it's no problem.

I was comparing the most wizards type warlock I could build to the wizard.

At low levels they get more spells, deal more damage, and can pick up non warlock cantrips.

My celestial Warlock level 3 had more utility with lots if cantrips, guidance, and healing so was better at utility as well.

Think I had 8 or 10 cantrips. Tomelock.

 

[5ekyu]

This. Some classes are front loaded as well.

Absolutely.

Wizard gets fully invested by level 2. Has both his class and initial sub-class features in play than.

Warlock having to wait until third to get its pact features is imo a disservice to them. Their whole familiar- blade-tome thing has to wait until tier-1 is half over to even start up? Personally I would have worked all into 1st and end levels for sub-classes etc. But that's my preference.

 

[5ekyu]

I was comparing the most wizards type warlock I could build to the wizard.

At low levels they get more spells, deal more damage, and can pick up non warlock cantrips.

My celestial Warlock level 3 had more utility with lots if cantrips, guidance, and healing so was better at utility as well.

Think I had 8 or 10 cantrips. Tomelock.

It's hard to make sense of things from the post because you either have something very off or are not giving enough info.

You mention having 8 or 10 cantrips as a tomelock without level cite snd while it follows a line about level 3 - at level 3 a warlock class can have by class - two from class - lets add two from celestial patron - and three from tomelock boon for 7 max from class related choices. They know four spells.

Compare to wizard who has 3-4 cantrips and 10 spells known at the same time (depends on subclass) and I just dont see how this adds up to more spells or more utility - different utility sure - by choosing celestial you choose to add some healing. But by the same token by choosing divination I get potent or I choose eithercabjurer or necromancy or illusion and get other things too.

I have no doubt you can build good strong warlocks. I just did not assume you could not also build good strong wizards that can hold their own. But I will take yourceord for that.