D&D 5E Charisma Conundrum

[Zardnaar]

It's hard to make sense of things from the post because you either have something very off or are not giving enough info.

You mention having 8 or 10 cantrips as a tomelock without level cite snd while it follows a line about level 3 - at level 3 a warlock class can have by class - two from class - lets add two from celestial patron - and three from tomelock boon for 7 max from class related choices. They know four spells.

Compare to wizard who has 3-4 cantrips and 10 spells known at the same time (depends on subclass) and I just dont see how this adds up to more spells or more utility - different utility sure - by choosing celestial you choose to add some healing. But by the same token by choosing divination I get potent or I choose eithercabjurer or necromancy or illusion and get other things too.

I have no doubt you can build good strong warlocks. I just did not assume you could not also build good strong wizards that can hold their own. But I will take yourceord for that.

I just think the warlock is more front loaded and portend is still tied to spell slots and you want to roll high and low. It's unreliable

Warlocks always going to have agonising blast, can refresh it's slots probably casting more higher level Spells, more cantrips and can heal using the celestial in as an example.

Low level I like having more resources such as a light cleric or bard dice etc so when you run out of spells (which won't take long) you have something else to do.

What that something else is varies but the warlock, moon druid, light cleric, lore bard have more options even if it's guidance spam. Guidance by itself being more useful than low level rituals.

All of the above IMHO of course.

 

[5ekyu]

I just think the warlock is more front loaded and portend is still tied to spell slots and you want to roll high and low. It's unreliable

Warlocks always going to have agonising blast, can refresh it's slots probably casting more higher level Spells, more cantrips and can heal using the celestial in as an example.

Low level I like having more resources such as a light cleric or bard dice etc so when you run out of spells (which won't take long) you have something else to do.

What that something else is varies but the warlock, moon druid, light cleric, lore bard have more options even if it's guidance spam. Guidance by itself being more useful than low level rituals.

All of the above IMHO of course.

"I just think the warlock is more front loaded and portend is still tied to spell slots and you want to roll high and low. It's unreliable."

Thanks, that explains a lot. In 5e portent is not tied to spell slots at all. In 5e since it can be used to apply to any ability check, attack or save, friendly or enemy you can see without taking a reaction on your part it is actually very reliable. Low, medium or high - setting the fie for key checks is not in my experience ever been unreliable. Whether its giving an enemy a miss or failed save with a low or medium roll at the right time or giving you or your ally a success at the tight time eith a medium to high result - the variability of the rolls just changes your opportunities.

This is amplified imo imx by the fact that the wizard can make the portent rolls before choosing prepped spells - both happen after taking long rest and you choose order in that case. So, if you get a pair of low to medium rolls or high rolls or whatever you can build on that hy spell choices thst suit it in addition to whatever options the rest of the scenes provide.

Really, portent is one of the most reliable and impactful of the opening sub-class features.

But if gor you it plays as unreliable, just goes to confirming that you are as you claim indeed better at building effective/strong warlocks than wizards. Me ? I can build effective/strong with both so that's likely part of our differences.

Based off your perceptions and misunderstanding of portent - I would suggest more time working with wizards might help. Evdn if only enough to know those basics.

 

[Zardnaar]

"I just think the warlock is more front loaded and portend is still tied to spell slots and you want to roll high and low. It's unreliable."

Thanks, that explains a lot. In 5e portent is not tied to spell slots at all. In 5e since it can be used to apply to any ability check, attack or save, friendly or enemy you can see without taking a reaction on your part it is actually very reliable. Low, medium or high - setting the fie for key checks is not in my experience ever been unreliable. Whether its giving an enemy a miss or failed save with a low or medium roll at the right time or giving you or your ally a success at the tight time eith a medium to high result - the variability of the rolls just changes your opportunities.

This is amplified imo imx by the fact that the wizard can make the portent rolls before choosing prepped spells - both happen after taking long rest and you choose order in that case. So, if you get a pair of low to medium rolls or high rolls or whatever you can build on that hy spell choices thst suit it in addition to whatever options the rest of the scenes provide.

Really, portent is one of the most reliable and impactful of the opening sub-class features.

But if gor you it plays as unreliable, just goes to confirming that you are as you claim indeed better at building effective/strong warlocks than wizards. Me ? I can build effective/strong with both so that's likely part of our differences.

Based off your perceptions and misunderstanding of portent - I would suggest more time working with wizards might help. Evdn if only enough to know those basics.

I know how portend is used it's only twice per long rest.

If you roll high it's best used on a save or attack roll.

If you roll low it's best used on a spell save.

If you roll in the middle (happens 1 in 3 rolls).

Hence why I said its unreliable and you don't get many uses of it.

Diviner wizard btw was the first wizard I saw in in 5E I'm well aware of it's power.

When I did the class tier guess what wizard was rated tier 1?

But no wizard I rated that high in the low levels. Other classes do awesome things and do it more often at a point in the game where it matters more. Compare with light cleric for example.

The wizards end up really good in combat and exploration, warlocks more combat and social maybe exploration.

The more pillars they were good at the higher I rated them and the really good rituals are level 3+ and low level wizards are a bit meh in the combat pillar due to lack of spells.

 

[5ekyu]

I just think the warlock is more front loaded and portend is still tied to spell slots and you want to roll high and low. It's unreliable

Warlocks always going to have agonising blast, can refresh it's slots probably casting more higher level Spells, more cantrips and can heal using the celestial in as an example.

Low level I like having more resources such as a light cleric or bard dice etc so when you run out of spells (which won't take long) you have something else to do.

What that something else is varies but the warlock, moon druid, light cleric, lore bard have more options even if it's guidance spam. Guidance by itself being more useful than low level rituals.

All of the above IMHO of course.

Want to thank again.

You give me good for thought.

My tomelocks typically were built as "gonna emphasize spells" especially if I went with Book of Rituals as an invocation at 3rd. So, I tended to not choose Agonizing blast (it's fine for the other pacts) because I wasnt planning to rely on EB as the core of vombst. So I would be very likely to spend my second invocation on a decent cast st will spell option like Silent Image - one I can spam a lot in a variety of ways and circumstances. This was made more reasonable by choosing attack cantrips like Chill Touch with some my extras for their secondary effects - in addition to ones not normally avsilable.

But since I see you put forth that even for tomelock taking book of rituals the agonizing blast is mandatory, that will give me reason to go look at again. As I ssid, for the other pacts, specifically chain, I did figure agonizing was worth it and usually blade too, when i was going for tomelock and spells i tended to not see enough EB reliance to warrant the automatic agaponizer.

 

[Zardnaar]

Want to thank again.

You give me good for thought.

My tomelocks typically were built as "gonna emphasize spells" especially if I went with Book of Rituals as an invocation at 3rd. So, I tended to not choose Agonizing blast (it's fine for the other pacts) because I wasnt planning to rely on EB as the core of vombst. So I would be very likely to spend my second invocation on a decent cast st will spell option like Silent Image - one I can spam a lot in a variety of ways and circumstances. This was made more reasonable by choosing attack cantrips like Chill Touch with some my extras for their secondary effects - in addition to ones not normally avsilable.

But since I see you put forth that even for tomelock taking book of rituals the agonizing blast is mandatory, that will give me reason to go look at again. As I ssid, for the other pacts, specifically chain, I did figure agonizing was worth it and usually blade too, when i was going for tomelock and spells i tended to not see enough EB reliance to warrant the automatic agaponizer.

It's not mandatory but the Celestial Warlock is picking up a huge amount of utility in the game very early on and deals a lot of damage and can heal and can be good at rituals.

The cantrips I picked were guidance, shocking grasp and something else I forget.

If you want to blast better be a fiendpact.

I was trying to compare the apples to apples using the most "wizardly" build of warlock.

The other assumptions I used were the default array, 6-8 encounters, 2 short rests.

Otherwise you spend more time arguing about white room scenarios which may or may not apply.

 

[5ekyu]

I know how portend is used it's only twice per long rest.

If you roll high it's best used on a save or attack roll.

If you roll low it's best used on a spell save.

If you roll in the middle (happens 1 in 3 rolls).

Hence why I said its unreliable and you don't get many uses of it.

Diviner wizard btw was the first wizard I saw in in 5E I'm well aware of it's power.

When I did the class tier guess what wizard was rated tier 1? .

Huh? Iirc you said it was tied to spell slots. Did I misread that?

If you roll in the middle you can use it on either after getting a little info to see whether that's good enough. A middle roll guarantee is fine when the effect is a save vs weak save type. A middle roll is usually good enough for attack rolls against middle AC or to force misses against your more heavy armored. A middle roll is fantastic on a clutch ability check where failure is bad news like a key hide check or really any number of examples.

The notion that you see a third of the rolls for the portent feature as I guess best for cases is telling.

But that's fine, folks have different strengths and different experiences at different tables have different impacts. I bet there are even tables where you could build a diviner wizard that at that table could keep up with a warlock in terms of value - if you gave it a chance and got a bit of experience st it st that table.

 

[Zardnaar]

Huh? Iirc you said it was tied to spell slots. Did I misread that?

If you roll in the middle you can use it on either after getting a little info to see whether that's good enough. A middle roll guarantee is fine when the effect is a save vs weak save type. A middle roll is usually good enough for attack rolls against middle AC or to force misses against your more heavy armored. A middle roll is fantastic on a clutch ability check where failure is bad news like a key hide check or really any number of examples.

The notion that you see a third of the rolls for the portent feature as I guess best for cases is telling.

But that's fine, folks have different strengths and different experiences at different tables have different impacts. I bet there are even tables where you could build a diviner wizard that at that table could keep up with a warlock in terms of value - if you gave it a chance and got a bit of experience st it st that table.

I meant the most powerful use of portent is spell slots but if your using it on skills there's lots of ways to buff them.

And saves are under a DMs control so it's hard to rate how useful that is. It can be great or hardly ever get used.

Of course wizards get a big power up at 5 but so does every other class.

It's around level 7 things start snowballing bit a lot of games tend to end around 7-10.

 

[5ekyu]

It's not mandatory but the Celestial Warlock is picking up a huge amount of utility in the game very early on and deals a lot of damage and can heal and can be good at rituals.

The cantrips I picked were guidance, shocking grasp and something else I forget.

If you want to blast better be a fiendpact.

I was trying to compare the apples to apples using the most "wizardly" build of warlock.

The other assumptions I used were the default array, 6-8 encounters, 2 short rests.

Otherwise you spend more time arguing about white room scenarios which may or may not apply.

"If you want to blast better..."

Huh. Now you have me confused again. If the goal is not to blast better but yo be more wizardly, then that drives me more away from the "always takes" agonizing and back towards my silent image or other no-slot invocation spell and an other than EB cantrip option seeing enough use to make Agonixing much lower down on the value-added for your one on-time invocation choice.

Clearly, this is a sign of my lack of understanding about warlocks and I will revisit the issue when I have time.

I have no problem really with the assumption of two short rests but at 3rd level, that puts the slots count per day at...
1st warlock has 1 at first plus 2 from rests vs wizard has 2 plus 1 from rest - equal if you ignore casting both in one encounter vs one for warlock.
2nd warlock has 2 at 2nd and from rests and wizard has 3 at 1st and one from rest for 6 vs 4 edge to warlock if you choose to ignore that the wizard can cast more than just two per encounter.
3rd warlock has 2 at 2nd and 4 from rests and wizard has 4 at 1st, two at second and let's say another second from rest for 6 vs 3 at second level plus four 1st level. How you weigh four firsts and the ability to cast more than two between rests - likely has impact.
4th warlock has 2 at 2nd and 4 from rests and wizard has 4 at 1st , 3 at 2nd and one say 2nd from rest for 6 vs 4 2nds edge to warlock but additional 4 first level for wizard still plus the value of having more than 2 in an encounter.


To me, the assumption of more dpell slots or more dpells doesnt hold up. That become even more true at sixth when the diviner gets dlots back for casting diviner spells. Then, even ignoring utility, you start looking at Mind Spike bring a 3d6 half-save attack the regenerates a first level slot - say a magic missile - or other useful slot. Now that dlot count starts to get more complicated. Of course, the radiant damage gains from the celestial is surely helpful - when it's not using its agonizing must have of vourse (and its resistance as well.)

 

[5ekyu]

I meant the most powerful use of portent is spell slots but if your using it on skills there's lots of ways to buff them.

And saves are under a DMs control so it's hard to rate how useful that is. It can be great or hardly ever get used.

Of course wizards get a big power up at 5 but so does every other class.

It's around level 7 things start snowballing bit a lot of games tend to end around 7-10.

Uhhh.., saves are usually determined by the effect not the GM. So, it seems we are playing very different games.

As for skills cs saves vs other - we see portent used for key checks at key moments and those are sometimes attacks, sometimes saves, sometimes ability checks - it really depends on the dynamics and complexities in play. If your games dont see a case where a grapple or escape, a hide check, a Charisma check, an insight check or a knowledge check is vital enough to show portent as potent then we play different games.

 

[Zardnaar]

"If you want to blast better..."

Huh. Now you have me confused again. If the goal is not to blast better but yo be more wizardly, then that drives me more away from the "always takes" agonizing and back towards my silent image or other no-slot invocation spell and an other than EB cantrip option seeing enough use to make Agonixing much lower down on the value-added for your one on-time invocation choice.

Clearly, this is a sign of my lack of understanding about warlocks and I will revisit the issue when I have time.

I have no problem really with the assumption of two short rests but at 3rd level, that puts the slots count per day at...
1st warlock has 1 at first plus 2 from rests vs wizard has 2 plus 1 from rest - equal if you ignore casting both in one encounter vs one for warlock.
2nd warlock has 2 at 2nd and from rests and wizard has 3 at 1st and one from rest for 6 vs 4 edge to warlock if you choose to ignore that the wizard can cast more than just two per encounter.
3rd warlock has 2 at 2nd and 4 from rests and wizard has 4 at 1st, two at second and let's say another second from rest for 6 vs 3 at second level plus four 1st level. How you weigh four firsts and the ability to cast more than two between rests - likely has impact.
4th warlock has 2 at 2nd and 4 from rests and wizard has 4 at 1st , 3 at 2nd and one say 2nd from rest for 6 vs 4 2nds edge to warlock but additional 4 first level for wizard still plus the value of having more than 2 in an encounter.


To me, the assumption of more dpell slots or more dpells doesnt hold up. That become even more true at sixth when the diviner gets dlots back for casting diviner spells. Then, even ignoring utility, you start looking at Mind Spike bring a 3d6 half-save attack the regenerates a first level slot - say a magic missile - or other useful slot. Now that dlot count starts to get more complicated. Of course, the radiant damage gains from the celestial is surely helpful - when it's not using its agonizing must have of vourse (and its resistance as well.)

The basic chasis doesn't change between celestial and fiendish tomelocks. What spells you pick does and your changing healing to temp go when you kill stuff.

You get more utility as celestial but fiend can pick up better AoEs.

By low level I mean 1-4. Wizard will end up with more spelks level 4 but they're mostly level 1. Warlock can put out 6 level 2 spells vs wizards 3 or 4.

Wizard slots generally get obsolete and are better off transitioning to utility and things like shield once you get much past level 5.

By 7 the wizard gets at least 5 level3/4 slits vs the warlocks 6 level 4.

I'm not arguing the warlock is completive at this point as a variant wizard. It's a glorified Archer with some Nova potential and utility assuming you've built a tomelock spellcaster over a melee Warlock. And you might not have celestial or fiendlocks.

Depending on how you've built them they're still plenty useful but they're not really competitive in spells vs a primary caster in terms of both being a spellcaster and the wizard isn't built as a melee character or something weird.

Level 1-4 warlocks, 5/6 roughly even level 7+ it starts to shift towards wizards.

The other primary casters also get goodies though and the wizard won't be as competitive in the social slot without significant investment such as a tertiary score, feats etc.

The warlock can pick up two more invocations by level 7 but it depends on what ones you pick and you can skew towards whatever pillar you like.