D&D 5E Charisma Conundrum

[Zardnaar]

Uhhh.., saves are usually determined by the effect not the GM. So, it seems we are playing very different games.

As for skills cs saves vs other - we see portent used for key checks at key moments and those are sometimes attacks, sometimes saves, sometimes ability checks - it really depends on the dynamics and complexities in play. If your games dont see a case where a grapple or escape, a hide check, a Charisma check, an insight check or a knowledge check is vital enough to show portent as potent then we play different games.

What i meant there is the DM might not use many spellcaster or monsters with AoE.

The player doesn't have any agency over their DMs encounter design. How useful portent us can vary in that and the dice rolls. Agonising blast for example is always on along with say guidance regardless if what the DM does.

Portents powerful but it's situational unreliable and limited in number.

Alit of warlock stuff us always on or available.


Portents strong as hell with 5MWD though but see previous comment.

 

[Ashrym]

You mention having 8 or 10 cantrips as a tomelock without level cite snd while it follows a line about level 3 - at level 3 a warlock class can have by class - two from class - lets add two from celestial patron - and three from tomelock boon for 7 max from class related choices. They know four spells.

He includes human variant feats in his builds. It's 2 by feat (not directly related to class), 2 for warlock, 2 for celestial, 3 for tome to get 9 cantrips by 3rd level. Wizard could do the same thing for 5 cantrips at 3rd level.

You are right. By class it's 7 vs 3 and that does matter at lower levels, although damage spells of a different flavor are situational in their usefulness. Guidance is a typical given.

This is my typical layout by 3rd on tome. I usually go fey for the flavor, although I think fiend or celestial are better.

cantrips -- prestidigitation, light, guidance, resistance, friends
1 -- armor of agathys, witch bolt, unseen servant
2 -- shatter

invocations -- misty visions, book of ancient secrets
rituals -- find familiar, speak with animals, unseen servant (known spell)
plus any other rituals I might have stored up

I don't bother with a damage cantrip at all at those levels. I'll have +3 from DEX anyway (half-elf) so a d8+3 works close enough to a d10+3 requiring an invocation, and better than most cantrips, and frees up that invocation. I'll wait for 4th level to grab eldritch blast, and 5th level for agonizing blast.

I don't bother with hex because of the concentration restriction and small damage bonus it grants on so few attacks at those levels.

The build relies on at-will abilities and typical weapon damage. One spell slot goes to armor of agathys, and one spell slot goes to witch bolt or shatter as often as I can short rest. It's got many elements a person would see a less than the best following the guides, and works.

 

[Zardnaar]

He includes human variant feats in his builds. It's 2 by feat (not directly related to class), 2 for warlock, 2 for celestial, 3 for tome to get 9 cantrips by 3rd level. Wizard could do the same thing for 5 cantrips at 3rd level.

You are right. By class it's 7 vs 3 and that does matter at lower levels, although damage spells of a different flavor are situational in their usefulness. Guidance is a typical given.

This is my typical layout by 3rd on tome. I usually go fey for the flavor, although I think fiend or celestial are better.

cantrips -- prestidigitation, light, guidance, resistance, friends
1 -- armor of agathys, witch bolt, unseen servant
2 -- shatter

invocations -- misty visions, book of ancient secrets
rituals -- find familiar, speak with animals, unseen servant (known spell)
plus any other rituals I might have stored up

I don't bother with a damage cantrip at all at those levels. I'll have +3 from DEX anyway (half-elf) so a d8+3 works close enough to a d10+3 requiring an invocation, and better than most cantrips, and frees up that invocation. I'll wait for 4th level to grab eldritch blast, and 5th level for agonizing blast.

I don't bother with hex because of the concentration restriction and small damage bonus it grants on so few attacks at those levels.

The build relies on at-will abilities and typical weapon damage. One spell slot goes to armor of agathys, and one spell slot goes to witch bolt or shatter as often as I can short rest. It's got many elements a person would see a less than the best following the guides, and works.

I probably miscounted I thought it was 8, 7 is correct. I don't have my books beside me and it was march - june I used it.

No feat was used. Wizard can pick that as well.
It had a lot of damage, utility, lots of cantrips. The DM kept the character sheet.

I used variant human feat doesnt matter (it was healer irrelevant for this discussion)

 

[5ekyu]

He includes human variant feats in his builds. It's 2 by feat (not directly related to class), 2 for warlock, 2 for celestial, 3 for tome to get 9 cantrips by 3rd level. Wizard could do the same thing for 5 cantrips at 3rd level.

You are right. By class it's 7 vs 3 and that does matter at lower levels, although damage spells of a different flavor are situational in their usefulness. Guidance is a typical given.

This is my typical layout by 3rd on tome. I usually go fey for the flavor, although I think fiend or celestial are better.

cantrips -- prestidigitation, light, guidance, resistance, friends
1 -- armor of agathys, witch bolt, unseen servant
2 -- shatter

invocations -- misty visions, book of ancient secrets
rituals -- find familiar, speak with animals, unseen servant (known spell)
plus any other rituals I might have stored up

I don't bother with a damage cantrip at all at those levels. I'll have +3 from DEX anyway (half-elf) so a d8+3 works close enough to a d10+3 requiring an invocation, and better than most cantrips, and frees up that invocation. I'll wait for 4th level to grab eldritch blast, and 5th level for agonizing blast.

I don't bother with hex because of the concentration restriction and small damage bonus it grants on so few attacks at those levels.

The build relies on at-will abilities and typical weapon damage. One spell slot goes to armor of agathys, and one spell slot goes to witch bolt or shatter as often as I can short rest. It's got many elements a person would see a less than the best following the guides, and works.

But cant a wizard also choose feats abnd races to add cantrips? How many pro-warlock assumptions are we needing to accept and assume the wizard gets none of yo make this tier-1 conclusion work?

Warlocks will spend one of their four known chsnge on levrl only unseen servant and can thus cast it to ways but the wizard wont spend one of his daily six picks on unseen servant for the same reason.

Warlock wanting cantrips will go for extra feat race but wizard wont.

GM might make choices thst affect whether or not portent is as good but wont make choices thst make EB worse or produce less than two short rests.

I guess after enough of these one-way assumptions, we can get beastmaster with a squirrel companion to the top of ghr hill at s given tier.

 

[Zardnaar]

See previous comment. Memory was wrong and I no longer have the character sheet.

 

[5ekyu]

He includes human variant feats in his builds. It's 2 by feat (not directly related to class), 2 for warlock, 2 for celestial, 3 for tome to get 9 cantrips by 3rd level. Wizard could do the same thing for 5 cantrips at 3rd level.

You are right. By class it's 7 vs 3 and that does matter at lower levels, although damage spells of a different flavor are situational in their usefulness. Guidance is a typical given.

This is my typical layout by 3rd on tome. I usually go fey for the flavor, although I think fiend or celestial are better.

cantrips -- prestidigitation, light, guidance, resistance, friends
1 -- armor of agathys, witch bolt, unseen servant
2 -- shatter

invocations -- misty visions, book of ancient secrets
rituals -- find familiar, speak with animals, unseen servant (known spell)
plus any other rituals I might have stored up

I don't bother with a damage cantrip at all at those levels. I'll have +3 from DEX anyway (half-elf) so a d8+3 works close enough to a d10+3 requiring an invocation, and better than most cantrips, and frees up that invocation. I'll wait for 4th level to grab eldritch blast, and 5th level for agonizing blast.

I don't bother with hex because of the concentration restriction and small damage bonus it grants on so few attacks at those levels.

The build relies on at-will abilities and typical weapon damage. One spell slot goes to armor of agathys, and one spell slot goes to witch bolt or shatter as often as I can short rest. It's got many elements a person would see a less than the best following the guides, and works.

Btw your tomelock is much closer to mine - tho with celestial it chsnges up a bit and our spells are different.

I also dont usually with tomelock worry about EB or Hex at tier-1. Message, Minor Illusion, Guidance, Friends and a save or effect cantrip all are priorities.

Of course we agree on Misty Visions over Agonizing. +3 damage on a hit at tier-1 is just not gonna compare to Silrnt Image all day so fantastically as to make it an always choice.

I find that build useful and effective in its play even at tier-1. I just font find it superior to the wizard at combat or that its edge in social outlays the wizard edge in discovery in play.

But then it's obvious by now the other table plays a very different game, possibly even different rules.

 

[Zardnaar]

Your not that good at combat because you didn't spend any resources on it.

I had 18 charisma you can go with 16.

Agonising blast plus hex plus EB.

5.5+4+3.5 13 avg damage 9.5 without hex. Sometimes you don't use it.

Pact of the Time
Cantrips

Guidance
Shocking Grasp
Druidcraft

Light
Sacred flame

Eldritch Blast
I forget

Book of Ancient Secrets
Agonising blast

Rituals via BoAS

Unseen servent
Find Familiar

Spells

Hex
Guiding Bolt
Flaming Sphere
Comprehend Languages

 

[5ekyu]

Your not that good at combat because you didn't spend any resources on it.

I had 18 charisma you can go with 16.

Agonising blast plus hex plus EB.

5.5+4+3.5 13 avg damage 9.5 without hex. Sometimes you don't use it.

Pact of the Time
Cantrips

Guidance
Shocking Grasp
Druidcraft

Light
Sacred flame

Eldritch Blast
I forget

Book of Ancient Secrets
Agonising blast

Rituals via BoAS

Unseen servent
Find Familiar

Spells

Hex
Comprehend Languages
Flaming Sphere
Cure

Again a point of confusion, given the statement about assuming standard array - how does a variant human get 18 cha using std array with healer feat? I mean yeah its possible at 4th, the last level in tier one, but anyone could have 18 at that point.

Or is this a case of assume array (max 16 or 17 after race) for the wizard but some other method for scores for the Warlock so he gets a higher score threshold at levels 1-3 too?

But I think a key point might be the linking of good at combat to not having Agonizing. Combat is not defined as, or rather your value st combat in a team, by your damage output individually. Like I said, in the games I play, at-will Silent Image yields a lot more impact that the +3 bonus to one hit a turn at tier-1. Sure, that can change a bit later once EB gets to three attacks hitting likely twice for a +8 or +10 a turn but by then you are into that area thst by assumption keeps getting dismissed because not enough of your games you want to consider last that long.

Our table are very different, with seemingly different rules and definitely different assumptions.

So I agsin come back to agreeing that at your tables, with your assumptions, you are able to create better, or whatever adjective of superiority you prefer, warlocks than you can wizards at some tiers or maybe just at cherry picked levels. Based on what you have said, I see no reason to doubt that you dont get as much out of your wizard builds as your warlocks under those conditions.

 

[Zardnaar]

Again a point of confusion, given the statement about assuming standard array - how does a variant human get 18 cha using std array with healer feat? I mean yeah its possible at 4th, the last level in tier one, but anyone could have 18 at that point.

Or is this a case of assume array (max 16 or 17) for the wizard but some other method for scores for the Warlock so he gets a higher score threshold at levels 1-3 too?

But I think a key point might be the linking of good at combat to not having Agonizing. Combat is not defined as, or rather your value st combat in a team, by your damage output individually. Like I said, in the games I play, at-will Silent Image yields a lot more impact that the +3 bonus to one hit a turn at tier-1. Sure, that can change a bit later once EB gets to three attacks hitting likely twice for a +8 or +10 a turn but by then you are into that area thst by assumption keeps getting dismissed because not enough of your games you want to consider last that long.

Our table are very different, with seemingly different rules and definitely different assumptions.

My Warlock had rolled stats, you can give the wizard 18 int or lower the warlocks charisma to 16.

It's not my exact build but it's very close.

In combat I used Eldritch blast often with hex using an owl to grant advantage with the occasional guiding bolt.

I'm not 100% sure what the last cantrip was or the 4th spell.

I built it for a lot if utility and as a glorified Archer I think guiding bolt and hex were the only offensive spells outside the cantrips.

 

[Ashrym]

But cant a wizard also choose feats abnd races to add cantrips? How many pro-warlock assumptions are we needing to accept and assume the wizard gets none of yo make this tier-1 conclusion work?

I was just pointing out where 9 comes from. Then I pointed out the difference without race (7 vs 3). Then I posted one I played (5 vs 3) that didn't add cantrips from subclass or race. Pointing out something that has been said and giving it a breakdown doesn't assume anything.

No one posted a build for comparison for the wizard yet. Adding a cantrip via illusionist doesn't match adding 2 via celestial and 3 more via tome. Unless you have a wizard subclass that adds 4 cantrips wizard are behind based on class potential.

Warlocks will spend one of their four known chsnge on levrl only unseen servant and can thus cast it to ways but the wizard wont spend one of his daily six picks on unseen servant for the same reason.

That was my point to refute your comment that a wizard can cast the spells normally or as rituals.

Other class can cast those spells as rituals or slots because of the requirements of their ritual mechanics. Wizards don't cast them as either rituals or slots because it's so situational to need to cast them using slots that there's no point prepping them, and wizards aren't forced to prep them to cast them as rituals.

Warlock wanting cantrips will go for extra feat race but wizard wont.

That doesn't make any sense. Warlocks wanting cantrips are likely going tome and having more than the wizard. The wizard is more likely to need the feat for more than the warlock, who can add more without the feat.

GM might make choices thst affect whether or not portent is as good but wont make choices thst make EB worse or produce less than two short rests.

I never made any comments about portent vs EB. As you could see in my sample build that I liked playing I don't bother with EB in the first tier. If we're comparing subclasses and you want to use diviner I'm going to say diviners are awesome, portent is great and tied to long rests while warlock patron abilities are tied to short rests (fey presence in this example), I love that expert divination promotes the use of casting divination spells later, and then point out that a diviner doesn't get bonus cantrips so if that's the comparison we're using then it applies to all aspects of the discussion.

I guess after enough of these one-way assumptions, we can get beastmaster with a squirrel companion to the top of ghr hill at s given tier.

Except there was no one-way assumption. That was just a number breakdown based on something that came up in the conversation.

Btw your tomelock is much closer to mine - tho with celestial it chsnges up a bit and our spells are different.

I also dont usually with tomelock worry about EB or Hex at tier-1. Message, Minor Illusion, Guidance, Friends and a save or effect cantrip all are priorities.

Of course we agree on Misty Visions over Agonizing. +3 damage on a hit at tier-1 is just not gonna compare to Silrnt Image all day so fantastically as to make it an always choice.

I find that build useful and effective in its play even at tier-1. I just font find it superior to the wizard at combat or that its edge in social outlays the wizard edge in discovery in play.

But then it's obvious by now the other table plays a very different game, possibly even different rules.

Yeah, cantrip damage sucks in general compared to weapon damage. EB has a pretty heavy investment for gains that early.

I think I should point out I've also gone with beguiling influence to expand my proficiencies and play heavily towards using ability checks. Friends can be useful but advantage on either persuasion or intimidation with a CHA class and proficiency without the aggression that comes after friends. The multiple target charm is handy for damage mitigation or stopping a fight in order to make use of those skills.

I just can't pull off rituals and 2 more skills and silent image on the same character in that tier. I do find silent image at-will and more cantrips and some good rituals and CHA vs INT is more advantageous at first.

Agonising blast plus hex plus EB.

5.5+4+3.5 13 avg damage 9.5 without hex. Sometimes you don't use it.

Pact of the Time
Cantrips

Guidance
Shocking Grasp
Druidcraft

Light
Sacred flame

Eldritch Blast
I forget

Book of Ancient Secrets
Agonising blast

Rituals via BoAS

Unseen servent
Find Familiar

Spells

Hex
Guiding Bolt
Flaming Sphere
Comprehend Languages

That's still 18 CHA.

This demonstrates my issues with hex, however. Casting unseen servant ends hex. Casting flaming sphere ends hex. Casting comprehend languages as a ritual ends hex. Casting guidance ends hex. Casting find familiar is less likely to be needed but also end hex.

The difference between the eldritch blast and a light crossbow is 1 damage at that level range and doesn't require the investment, while hex isn't a given unless a person is giving up frequent uses of guidance or not using the ritual caster feature.