I meant "behind in cantrips based on class potential". That wasn't clear so you have my apologies. My point was that cantrips matter at low levels (except damage cantrips) and having more is an advantage. There's no wizard build that can add equal or exceed warlock cantrips if both are taking advantage of them.
At-will is a warlock schtick when it comes to casters. Cantrips, SLA's, and relevant invocations.
"They", whoever they are, are not me. You can check out the discussion Zard and I had in his remake the bard thread to see more on how I look at it. The context is a bard picking up eldritch blast and hex, and I definitely looked a sneak attacks and evokers for damage comparisons.
What makes eldritch blast "good" is that it works like extra attacks and multiplies damage bonuses. It's agonizing blast that gets multiplied out and that does make it a good damage cantrip compared to other spell casters using damage cantrips. The problem is hex isn't reliable as sustained at-will damage when it conflicts with so many concentration options.
Evokers gain save-for-half instead of save-for-none and add INT bonus to cantrips to a single target later in comparison. Decent for cantrips but it's still behind warlock at-will damage. Extra attack with weapons tends to beat cantrips in general.
Which is why I post actual builds and request them instead of hypotheticals. That gives better opportunities for direct comparisons and avoids Shrodinger arguments. It's also why I pointed out some of the other options I done with warlocks and included that I couldn't do all of them at the same time at specific level being discussed at the time.
How did you not do so on a tome warlock? The default is 2 more cantrips than a wizard and 1 more cantrip than a wizard who adds a cantrip via subclass. Most wizard traditions don't offer additional cantrips so not having more cantrips on a tome warlock vs wizard would be the exception, not the rule.
A mistake in the count doesn't change the generality here. We can include wizard subclasses, but tome simply gives a lot of cantrips.
My point was there's no reason to and that's why the wizard wouldn't do it.
At 3rd level a wizard is better off using a light crossbow too, lol. Cantrip damage is a hard sell.
As for squishier, I tend to prep mage armor, shield, and absorb elements early. That's also why I know wizards aren't prepping rituals, lol.
That translates into a 15 or 16 AC with a situational bonus to make heavy armor levels of AC if needed. The hp difference is 20 hp for wizard (14 CON) compared to 24 hp for the warlock. Armor of agathys is my defensive spell on a warlock.
In my experience, better AC beats more hitpoints.
There are spells on the wizard list that give or enable healing, or some tradition abilities. Catnap and life transference, later clone and wish, or spells that facilitate resting. The transmuter's stone gains healing ability as well, for example. Spells like vampiric touch or soul cage grant self-healing. All classes self-heal through hit dice on a short rest so anything that facilitates short rests are going to grant healing.
At 3rd level it might be nothing or it might be rope trick. It's not so much no healing as less healing.
AoE's favor wizards over warlocks. More options. At those early levels it's pretty much shatter vs shatter and arms of hadar vs thunder wave so kind of a wash. What a light cleric has or does not have isn't relevant to a comparison between wizards and warlocks. That's a red herring.
As for utility and support, you and 5ekyu both seem to miss the limitations on either class in the discussion, Zard.
We've been discussion 3rd level / tier 1, to keep it in context. I posted my 3rd level from a warlock I played previously, you have been using the celestial tomelock for your example, and 5ekyu brought up diviners and portent for his specific example so we're comparing to a diviner build. 5ekyu also offered up his spell list for a past warlock build.
Me: fey (for flavor); fey presence; prestidigitation, light, guidance, resistance, friends; armor of agathys, unseen servant, witch bolt, shatter; speak with animals and find familiar rituals; misty visions, book of ancient secrets; 16 DEX with light crossbow for damage. Shatter is my AoE, witch bolt my single target damage increase; armor of agathys is my defense; the rest are utility. Witch bolt gets replaced at 5th level when I bring eldritch blast on line.
You: celestial (for healing); healing pool; eldritch blast, something forgettable, light, sacred flame, guidance, shocking grasp, druidcraft; hex, guiding bolt, flaming sphere, comprehend languages; unseen servant and find familiar rituals; EB+agonizing blast for damage plus hex situationally. Situationally because you have so many concentration abilities that hex is unlikely to be maintained at any level; the only alternative is to not use all those concentration abilities. The other noticeable issue is 3 damage cantrips and 2 damage spells not counting hex. The concentration conflict will cost you in utility, and the abundance of damage spells takes away from utility.
5ekyu: message, minor Illusion, guidance, friends, save or effect cantrip of some sort; weapon damage; misty visions and book of ancient secrets; undisclosed spells; undisclosed cantrips but obviously 2 at a minimum can cover unseen servant and find familiar
Your utility is light, guidance, druidcraft, and comprehend languages; find familiar and unseen servant. Mine is fey presence, light, guidance, prestidigitation, resistance, friends, unseen servant; find familiar and speak with animals rituals. 5ekyu and I can both cast silent image at will with our examples and have more utility in our cantrips because neither is using so many damage cantrips.
A diviner (no one posted a build): portent was specifically mentioned. I pointed out I favor defensive spells on wizards so going with my example.... light, prestidigitation, probably a save or effect cantrip with one more utility cantrip at best; spellbook -- armor, shield, identify, detect magic, find familiar, unseen servant, comprehend languages, sleep(?), shatter (to claim AoE), levitate(?) (
@5ekyu if you post your spells at that level I would be happy to discuss them. I went heavy on rituals because of our discussion on the wizard ritual advantage and took rituals I personally like to take); prepped -- armor, shield, sleep, pick a ritual that might seem like it would be important to be able to cast quickly, shatter, levitate
The diviner has no advantage in damage or AoE. The diviner has no advantage in cantrips and is behind in every example. The diviner and warlocks each took good rituals and the diviner does have the advantage of detecting magic or identifying items faster than the warlocks (situational and minor). The wizard does not offer healing (not all warlocks examples do either). The argument needs to be made to demonstrate INT is as effective as CHA in the social pillar and using social spells was not feasible after including other spell options discussed -- 2 warlock examples easily fit in friends; giving up the argument for rituals allows for including charm person. Levitate might give an exploration benefit that's replaceable by climbing kits or grappling hooks (or both) and it definitely gives a combat advantage not covered in the damage or defense examples. Zard's warlock has no defensive options beyond a few more hp and light armor. Damage mitigation normally trumps damage healing.
In all cases unlimited misty visions has a very definite advantage over spell slots, which was my original argument. Warlocks have the advantage in cantrips, which was an argument I later added. Rituals are not a significant advantage at this point where every example is including solid rituals in that level range. The diviner has portent which is pretty good and the warlocks have fey presence or a healing pool; each is useful. The wizard has the better defensive and status effect options in what I listed (shield, armor, levitate offensively or defensively) but those are restricted by the limited number of spell slots.
Anyone who wants to contribute different choices in the wizard or warlock at low levels is welcome, of course.
yup
That's only true if the warlock doesn't cast another concentration spell, ritual, or fail a concentration saving throw every time damage is inflicted. It's not a reasonable expectation. Are you really telling me you take all those concentration spells to never cast them for extended periods of time?
Spell casters cannot do both. One restricts the other in all cases.
The problem is it's still good for spell casters but not necessarily good in general, single target, and not better than your hypnotic pattern example. A wizard's or bard's ability to let heavy damage weapon users do damage without taking damage in return is where their real strengths lay in combat.
It was a long post and entirely possible my thoughts wandered between the time I started and finished.