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D&D 5E Charisma Conundrum

Ashrym

Legend
Re wizards prepping rituals...
"My point was there's no reason to and that's why the wizard wouldn't do it."

But then you are just wrong.

The issue was brought up by others due to how having the option to cast Unsern Servant as a slot in 1 action not as a ritual has advantages - including not taking concentration but also as a quick effect, not wating 10m. For some, like Comprrhend Languages, it's just time saving. Having it slotted for a wizard allows either, just like it would for a book of rituals warlock who chose it as one of its four.

So, there are reasons to do so. I did it myself when running a wizard about two to three campaigns ago where I got a lot of mileage out of US and that included ritual cast and slot cast. So, if I had a concentration dprll going I could cast US. Could so so in combat. Etc.
The point I was making yo that poster was that the eizard having at the level they cherried had 6 prep slots vs warlock 4 and could change them daily not at level, so it was even easier for the wizard, not the warlock.

If you see it as no reason to do it for a wizard, that helps explain a lot.

So what 10 spells does your diviner have in his spellbook (8 1st-level and 2 2nd-level), and which 6 is he or she prepping, for comparison?

My warlock can slot unseen servant or ritual cast it too, so using that as your example doesn't show me anything. It does make me curious how many slots you think the diviner isn't devoting to other actions because he or she is maintaining concentration and what he or she is maintaining such concentration on at 3rd level.
 

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5ekyu

Hero
Witchbolt is only terrible because of the range requirement to maintain it.

The auto-hit on subsequent rounds makes it better damage than eldritch blast at 1st, 3rd, and 4th level even with agonizing blast as long as that range is maintained. Even with hex agonizing blast is 5.5+3+3.5 for 12 damage 60-65% of the time while witch bolt is 13 damage 100% of the time on subsequent damage at 3rd level. That's the same action and concentration costs for slightly more damage and significantly less investment.

Use your familiar for help to land witch bolt that first round, and do it when expecting the target not to leave in order to avoid the damage, or hope the target triggers opportunity attacks by moving. Witch bolt isn't a good spell but it's better than one might realize.

The problem with hex is that no matter how many times you mention taking it, it will continue to be problematic. If you maintain hex, you don't cast flaming sphere, guidance, or use any of your rituals. If you do any of those, you don't maintain hex. The only way around that is to keep spending spell slots on casting hex, which is even harder on a warlock than it was on your bard build in our previous discussion. On the build you have in mind, I would expect hex to be down the vast majority of the time and only cast for an important battle that might take some time.

How do you get to "while witch bolt is 13 damage 100% of the time on subsequent damage at 3rd level. "

Witch bolt is 1d12. If you uptick it, it only gains extra d12 on the initial shot not subsequent ones.

Is this yet another campaign specific tweak or assumption that helps lead to favorable warlock results?
 

Ashrym

Legend
How do you get to "while witch bolt is 13 damage 100% of the time on subsequent damage at 3rd level. "

Witch bolt is 1d12. If you uptick it, it only gains extra d12 on the initial shot not subsequent ones.

Is this yet another campaign specific tweak or assumption that helps lead to favorable warlock results?

Witch bolt auto-scales into a 2nd level slot at 3rd level just like every other warlock spell. That bumps it up from 1d12 to 2d12 damage. And crap, I've been using witch bolt wrong. I just took another look and it's only the initial damage than increases.

Color me an new shade of scarlet. At least I learned my error there.

EDIT: funny part is no one ever realized I was doing extra damage, lol
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Witch bolt auto-scales into a 2nd level slot at 3rd level just like every other warlock spell. That bumps it up from 1d12 to 2d12 damage. And crap, I've been using witch bolt wrong. I just took another look and it's only the initial damage than increases.

Color me an new shade of scarlet. At least I learned my error there.

EDIT: funny part is no one ever realized I was doing extra damage, lol

It's an easy miss, it's a terrible spell.

On subsequent rounds it's barely more than a cantrip, requires concentration and you can run away from it.

Hex plus EB outdamages it longer range and lasts an hour.
 

5ekyu

Hero
So what 10 spells does your diviner have in his spellbook (8 1st-level and 2 2nd-level), and which 6 is he or she prepping, for comparison?

My warlock can slot unseen servant or ritual cast it too, so using that as your example doesn't show me anything. It does make me curious how many slots you think the diviner isn't devoting to other actions because he or she is maintaining concentration and what he or she is maintaining such concentration on at 3rd level.
Sigh... again because it seems you missed it - the first arguement that was put forth was Warlock slotting unseen gave it an edge up because the wizard would only ritual it. My counter was if it was seen as beneficial, the wizard could do it.

The second argument was that put by ou that wizards wouldn't because they had no reason to do so. I showed two - time and concentration.

If you want to argue that to you you dont value time and concentration enough to spend that prep slot normally or cannot imagine every wanting to - thats fine. That's a different argument than saying there is no reason to.

But, for your "give me a spell list" - why? Because it would be pointless. The spells for the wizard can change daily and based on the type of scene expected.

Also, of course, I dont have a std spellbook, because the characters that choose that spell roster and the other PCs involved and the play in the game as we go thru levels inform the spellbook choices. The spells from one campaign to another change when you look at what else the party has and needs, etc.

Course, none of those get factored into white rooms. But they do fsctor in vital to my spellbook choices.

This kind of "in a vacuum" sizing is being paraded as if its analysis but its really just to me an internet pissing contest. Its treating the play online like it's an MMO dps role build optimization that to me steps far far away from the actual play in an rpg.

That said, I cannot recall ever not taking Unseen servant as one of my initial six.

If I had to choose a core list at first -6 - it tends to include Magic Missile, Unseen Servant, Silent Image and Fog Cloud.

You may notice they have no material comps or trivial ones.

Find Familiar is one i sometimes leave until second to see (assume new GM) how the GM manages components. If they make getting "exotic" and "costly" material hard to find then Familiar is a much more dubious choice. Had a game once run thru to 4th level where the character who had the spell was never able to find the familiar spell components

The remaining two pages have a lot of competition to be sure. But, even if I choose those four at first (highly likely) the other two will be influenced by the "who is this charsacter" and what is my knowledge of the GM and campaign setting. Then daily which four get chosen for prep at 1st will vary a bit but it depends on so much it has no std.

In my experience, in actual play, when using the 5e rules without a lot of csmpaign tweaks to cantrip counts and bolt damages and familiar reliability etc etc etc - wizards perform well - not second fiddle to warlocks although not necessarily at the same things. Warlocks are fine, imo, I have run effective ones too.
 

Ashrym

Legend
Sigh... again because it seems you missed it - the first arguement that was put forth was Warlock slotting unseen gave it an edge up because the wizard would only ritual it. My counter was if it was seen as beneficial, the wizard could do it.

The second argument was that put by ou that wizards wouldn't because they had no reason to do so. I showed two - time and concentration.

If you want to argue that to you you dont value time and concentration enough to spend that prep slot normally or cannot imagine every wanting to - thats fine. That's a different argument than saying there is no reason to.

But, for your "give me a spell list" - why? Because it would be pointless. The spells for the wizard can change daily and based on the type of scene expected.

Also, of course, I dont have a std spellbook, because the characters that choose that spell roster and the other PCs involved and the play in the game as we go thru levels inform the spellbook choices. The spells from one campaign to another change when you look at what else the party has and needs, etc.

Course, none of those get factored into white rooms. But they do fsctor in vital to my spellbook choices.

This kind of "in a vacuum" sizing is being paraded as if its analysis but its really just to me an internet pissing contest. Its treating the play online like it's an MMO dps role build optimization that to me steps far far away from the actual play in an rpg.

That said, I cannot recall ever not taking Unseen servant as one of my initial six.

If I had to choose a core list at first -6 - it tends to include Magic Missile, Unseen Servant, Silent Image and Fog Cloud.

You may notice they have no material comps or trivial ones.

Find Familiar is one i sometimes leave until second to see (assume new GM) how the GM manages components. If they make getting "exotic" and "costly" material hard to find then Familiar is a much more dubious choice. Had a game once run thru to 4th level where the character who had the spell was never able to find the familiar spell components

The remaining two pages have a lot of competition to be sure. But, even if I choose those four at first (highly likely) the other two will be influenced by the "who is this charsacter" and what is my knowledge of the GM and campaign setting. Then daily which four get chosen for prep at 1st will vary a bit but it depends on so much it has no std.

In my experience, in actual play, when using the 5e rules without a lot of csmpaign tweaks to cantrip counts and bolt damages and familiar reliability etc etc etc - wizards perform well - not second fiddle to warlocks although not necessarily at the same things. Warlocks are fine, imo, I have run effective ones too.

Sighing doesn't show anything but condescension. Post a full list. Support your argument outside of "a vacuum" or "white room". I asked for that because it avoids Shrodinger arguments.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Sighing doesn't show anything but condescension. Post a full list. Support your argument outside of "a vacuum" or "white room". I asked for that because it avoids Shrodinger arguments.

Alternatively posting the wizard build first allows you build your warlock build around it. That doesn't quite seem fair either no?
 

Ashrym

Legend
Alternatively posting the wizard build first allows you build your warlock build around it. That doesn't quite seem fair either no?
No, because I already posted a warlock build and Zard already posted a warlock build. It's not possible to post the wizard first at this point.

Just based on the incomplete 1st level spells 5ekyu posted for the spell book leads me to believe there won't be that many rituals there, although I have no doubt unseen servant and find familiar will be.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Alternatively posting the wizard build first allows you build your warlock build around it. That doesn't quite seem fair either no?

I put most of a warlock build earlier.

The wizards probably not going to have a drastic amount if rituals over a warlock at least early on.

Unless the pick a lot and there's not that many good rituals a tomelock can't get.

Both will probably have unseen servant. I don't think either build was done to come counter the other.

Wizards well know more spells that's obvious and that gap will get bigger. And that's when wizards get better it's mostly level 1-4 maybe 5 where I think the warlock is better more or less across the board.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
No, because I already posted a warlock build and Zard already posted a warlock build. It's not possible to post the wizard first at this point.

Just based on the incomplete 1st level spells 5ekyu posted for the spell book leads me to believe there won't be that many rituals there, although I have no doubt unseen servant and find familiar will be.

Well that works - and even better as I don't know exactly what ya'll picked and am not looking.

I'll post a typical level 3 wizard build. Keep in mind my optimization is mostly toward having save the party style spells and non-prepared rituals.

1575348916417.png


1575348768175.png


1575348775364.png


Those would be the spells I'd choose for this role.

Attack with light crossbow. Shocking grasp if something comes to melee.

16 int 16 dex. Con as much as possible with whatever stat gen method is available

Race = forest gnome

Effectively an extra cantrip - will add mage hand to list
Also a cantrip-like effect in speak with animals

Divination subclass
 
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