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D&D 5E Charisma Conundrum

Ashrym

Legend
Well that works - and even better as I don't know exactly what ya'll picked and am not looking.

I'll post a typical level 3 wizard build. Keep in mind my optimization is mostly toward having save the party style spells and non-prepared rituals.

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Those would be the spells I'd choose for this role.

Attack with light crossbow. Shocking grasp if something comes to melee.

16 int 16 dex. Con as much as possible with whatever stat gen method is available

Race = forest gnome

Effectively an extra cantrip - will add mage hand to list
Also a cantrip-like effect in speak with animals

Divination subclass

This is the kind of thing I was expecting.

The rituals I had were unseen servant, find familiar, and speak with animals. You example matches that, and adds identify and detect magic. Identify and detect magic aren't necessary for magic items using the default rules for that in the DMG. They make it faster and have additional niche uses. Zard had comprehend languages, unseen servant, and find familiar. The wizard rituals are better but not by enough to warrant declaring them better, imo.

One of the disagreements was that I stated even though a wizard can prep the ritual and cast it using a slot he's not going to. Your example followed my argument.

My cantrips were prestidigitation, light, guidance, resistance, friends. Everyone took light. I didn't bother with a damage cantrip on what's largely a flavor build. Zard had 3 damage cantrips, one of which was also shocking grasp and likely for the same reason. 5ekyu and I both ignored eldritch blast and I went with the crossbow. The tome warlock always wins in cantrips because they can obviously take the same 3 cantrips the wizard can plus 2 more. That was a point for the warlock builds.

Your diviner uses shield and my warlock was using armor of agathys. I think shield is better because the AC beats hit points whether it's in the form of temp hit points or hit point recovery via healing. I've given wizards the point here in the warlock and bard discussions. The wizard spell list has a lot of options for defense. Fey presence can be used for defense because of the charmed condition.

My warlock example uses misty visions. Misty visions at will beats silent image via spell slots very easily. That's the solid point I've been giving warlocks.

I opted for AoE damage. I took unseen servant, witch bolt, armor of agathys, and shatter. I was using witch bolt incorrectly at levels 3 and 4, and swapping it at 5th level. Knowing my error I would just stick with sleep (I was fey). I mentioned rope trick and levitate, and that versatility was a point I was giving to wizards. At those levels slots are still a restriction where misty visions is doing a lot for the warlock, which was my point much earlier when I said wizards still have versatility and it's the SLA's beating out spell slots at low levels before pacing considerations on spell slots.

My race was half-elf and had more skill proficiencies. I wasn't counting that as a point because it's not coming from the class. I was weighing CHA as more prominent in ability checks for the social pillar and a point for warlocks. The spells you selected aren't working the social pillar while guidance helps regardless.

Your build isn't built for damage. Mine had damage as an option but it was meant to use skills, those rituals, and cantrips primarily and damage situationally. Your build isn't focused on the social pillar but it can use portent to help with that in a pinch. Mine has friends, fey presence, guidance, and CHA vs INT.

It's late and I risk rambling. Overall I think my warlock has the advantage more often at those levels.
 

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5ekyu

Hero
Sighing doesn't show anything but condescension. Post a full list. Support your argument outside of "a vacuum" or "white room". I asked for that because it avoids Shrodinger arguments.
I find sighs to more often represent weariness or boredom - at having to repeat a point again being one such case. Yiu have never seen someone sigh over anything but condescension? That's very different from my ecperiende, to be sure.
 

5ekyu

Hero
I put most of a warlock build earlier.

The wizards probably not going to have a drastic amount if rituals over a warlock at least early on.

Unless the pick a lot and there's not that many good rituals a tomelock can't get.

Both will probably have unseen servant. I don't think either build was done to come counter the other.

Wizards well know more spells that's obvious and that gap will get bigger. And that's when wizards get better it's mostly level 1-4 maybe 5 where I think the warlock is better more or less across the board.

"The wizards probably not going to have a drastic amount if rituals over a warlock at least early on."

Drastic amount as defined by... Schroedinger?

Not that i have argued they would but just wondering how we determine the difference between a dratic amount and just say a significant amount or a tad more when the cherried point was a level when we are looking at 10 spells for the wizard total - outside of "founds".

And BTW is "early on" limited to level three precisely? Or do levels 1,2 and 4 count too?

And BTW how many "found" spells (rituals or otherwise) should we assume per level? Should we assume them as random or choice or a mix? I mean, i would suspect if that rule was stated as "none" that the folks going for tomelock and rituals would take a bit of a hit if the only rituals they ever got were the two they choose at 3rd and the four other ones on the warlock list right? So, the wizard has two levels of finding spells and scribing spells before 3rd even gets there.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Anyway, just to see how funny the responses get...

Shcroedinger The Wizard of Nowhere

Forest Gnome
– Minor Illusion Cantrip, Dark Vision, Gnome Cunning, Speak with Small Beasts

Background – Marshall – Investigation +5, Survival+4 , Herbalism kit, Elven, Watcher’s Eye

Abilitiy Scores (Point buy) Str-8 Dex-14 Con-12 Int-16 Wis-14 Cha-12 (Cha might drop to 10 to allow 13 Con and 9 Str or 10 Str depending on setting and encumbrance rules)

Class Wizard (Sub-class Diviner at 2nd) Proficiencies: Arcana +5 and History +5, Saves

1st level – Two first level slots plus 1 level Arcane Recovery

Cantrips at 1st level


Minor illusion (Gnome), Firebolt, Message, Friends (?)

Spellbook at 1st level

Magic Missile, Fog Cloud, Silent image, Charm Person, Sleep, Unseen Servant

2nd Level - three first level slots plus 1 spell level Arcane Recovery

Diviner – Portent (two uses) and Savant

Spellbook at 2nd level


Magic Missile, Fog Cloud, Silent image, Charm Person, Sleep, Grease, Alarm, Unseen Servant

3rd Level – Four 1st level slots plus two 2nd level slots plus two levels Arcane Recovery

Spellbook at 3rd level


Magic Missile, Fog Cloud, Silent Image, Charm Person, Sleep, Grease, Mind Spike, Locate Object, Alarm, Unseen Servant

By the Pillars @3rd

Combat
– Firebolt, Magic Missile, Mind Spike for damage. Minor Illusion, Silent image, Fog Cloud, Grease, Sleep for more control type combat gains. Unseen Servan(s) for distractions or objectives. To be clear, DPR is not a primary here – control is more the forte.

Discovery – Arcana, History, investigation at +5, Survival at +4, Beast speech. Locate Object, Alarm, Unseen Servant

Social – Friends and Charm Person. This tier is clearly where the character is second rate but these two spells give it some decent opportunity strikes with it – given Portent especially.

Utility – Herbalism Kit (healing potions), Message, Minor illusion. Unseen Servant

Note on Materials – I intentionally avoided any spells with a costly or uncommon component. Operating in a vacuum, cannot guarantee the availability of such.

Alternatives - Obviously a lot of other options exist. Magic Mouth and Detect magic are very strong contenders as are Detect magic, Disguise Self, Flaming Sphere etc depending on the specific needs. Obviously, Hold person is a high contender too, given Portent. Mind Spike may wait until 4th to make room for Hold person at 3rd – Spike is a priority because of the 6th level ability which would regain a 1st level slot whenever Spike was cast.

Note on AC – You will notice no push for AC buff like Shield or Mage Armor. That is because I typically have found that those are rarely worth the cost – by the time you need them enough to matter, you are dead – especially at lower levels. I find better success through using effects and plans so you are not the one drawing attack rolls and needing AC. If I were worried about this kind of thing, I would likely go with False Life – because it helps against both damage from attack rolls and damage from Save rolls and it scales better.
 

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