D&D 5E Fixing the Fighter: The Zouave

[Ancalagon]

And for your reference, the Glog: OSR: GLOG-based Homebrew v.2: Many Rats on Sticks Edition (or at least, a very recent and well regarded version).

 

[Oofta]

I edited my OP yesterday to point the Glog aspect out, but I think many missed it.

It's why I would have to convert to a 5e subclass.

Thanks for clarifying, it explains some of my initial confusion. Then again, I'm easily confused ... wait what were we talking about?

 

[Ancalagon]

Thanks for clarifying, it explains some of my initial confusion. Then again, I'm easily confused ... wait what were we talking about?

Basically, the idea was to make a modified fighter with a lot of the non combat pillars skills and abilities that a veteran campaigner would have. The Zouave is a historical reference, and now a Glog class.

I think that the best way to achieve this is to make a subclass that is very focused on the non combat pillars.

 

[Oofta]

Basically, the idea was to make a modified fighter with a lot of the non combat pillars skills and abilities that a veteran campaigner would have. The Zouave is a historical reference, and now a Glog class.

I think that the best way to achieve this is to make a subclass that is very focused on the non combat pillars.

I'd have to go through the whole glog thing to make any other comments on this particular option. Thanks for the update.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Basically, the idea was to make a modified fighter with a lot of the non combat pillars skills and abilities that a veteran campaigner would have. The Zouave is a historical reference, and now a Glog class.

I think that the best way to achieve this is to make a subclass that is very focused on the non combat pillars.

I would agree. And I think the game has room for a subclass like that.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I see the problem... Tony was being sarcastic with his 'But the preferred term is "new and casual player"', basically implying that when people say the Fighter is good for 'new and casual players' they're really thinking 'for suckers and idiots', but that's not what Tony himself think.

I didn't think explanation was necessary (I mean, I'm pretty consistently sarcastic & cynical), but thanks, that's close enough.

Also, "sucker" does not inspire respect or sympathy - a sucker gets what he deserves, is how the sharp or grifter (or whatever the less-than-a-century-old term would be) sees it. New & casual players are a large & important part of our hobby, and should not be systematically taken advantage of, no matter how much fun it might seem like to some personalities (there's unquestionably a strain of elitism in our hobby, as in all niche hobbies).

The fighter is very attractive to new/casual players - and many established players, even though they're well-acquainted with its shortcomings, they can apply system mastery to partially overcome them - because it covers the most familiar and relatable tropes around heroes in the fantasy genre. That popularity is often used in, well ad populum arguments that the mechanics of the fighter must be responsible for that popularity, and therefor just fine (even though, lets face it, they've changed radically in each of the last three editions, with no corresponding change in popularity).

 

[Sacrosanct]

It doesn’t take system mastery to decide to use a feat on dungeon delver, or actor. It doesn’t have some super appeal to new players (most people I taught over the years preferred casters or other magical classes because magic was more fantastical than emulating real life combat skills). And experienced players who like the class don’t all agree it has shortcomings.
I swear, it’s like some people can’t help but take digs at others’ integrity if they don't share your preferences.

like every other class, people play it to play an archetype they want, and choose what skills, feats, etc based on that vision. And the vast majority are perfectly happy. They aren’t just newbies or veterans who secretly admit it’s broken somehow. I imagine most are like me. One of my favorite PCs is a halfling fighter who has the urchin background, dungeon delver feat, and skulker feat. I’m certainly no newbie, and I certainly don’t think the fighter class has short comings. It does exactly what I want it to do with the role I have in my head for who the character is. I think a whole lot of players are like me: not worried about optimization but build characters based on theme.

 

[Oofta]

I didn't think explanation was necessary, but thanks, that's close enough.

The fighter is very attractive to new/casual players - and many established players, even though they're well-acquainted with its shortcomings, they can apply system mastery to partially overcome them - because it covers the most familiar and relatable tropes around heroes in the fantasy genre. That popularity is often used in, well ad populum arguments that the mechanics of the fighter must be responsible for that popularity, and therefor just fine (even though, lets face it, they've changed radically in each of the last three editions, with no corresponding change in popularity).

I think @Sacrosanct just said it better than I. I like playing fighters, they do exactly what I want from the class. Every class has compromises and shortcomings, fighters are no better or worse than the others.

Then again, I suspect "contributions outside of combat" may mean something different to me. My fighters contributed plenty outside of combat, not all contributions have to be mechanical in nature.

 

[Undrave]

Then again, I suspect "contributions outside of combat" may mean something different to me. My fighters contributed plenty outside of combat, not all contributions have to be mechanical in nature.

If they're non-mechanical then they aren't a contribution of the class you picked and the same player could have done the same contribution regardless of the Fighter class having 0 class features or having 100 class features.

 

[Oofta]

If they're non-mechanical then they aren't a contribution of the class you picked and the same player could have done the same contribution regardless of the Fighter class having 0 class features or having 100 class features.

Your point is? My fighters contribute plenty, sometimes that includes rolling dice sometimes it doesn't.

Not requiring proficiency, skill or a magic get out of jail free card does apply to all classes. But, as it's been pointed out many, many, many times if you want to have more out of combat mechanical benefits you have several options. Even with the lowly fighter. It just depends on what's important to the player.