D&D 5E UA Spell Versatility: A deeper dive

[Maxperson]

Well, from the posts there are only a few who were at least vocal in expressing a similar interpretation, and more who read it as I do. I think from the video the intent was clear and if you want to rule it differently of course that is up to you. But as I said, that is neither here nor there.

Again, I am asking for a concrete example of exactly how it would work to you. You can only swap a spell of the same level. So, when you first use it that is the spell level you are locked into, right? Are you saying you can swap that spell with any other of that level?

Example:

My sorcerer knows Charm Person and is going into a combat-heavy assault, deciding Magic Missile would be more useful. So, after a long rest he swaps out Charm Person for Magic Missile.

Does Charm Person become the swap spell, or Magic Missile?

Later on, he wants Comprehend Languages. Can he? Does he have to swap back for Charm Person first, and then swap again for Comprehend Languages? Can he go right from Magic Missile to Comprehend Languages?

Or are you basically saying he has X - 1 permanent known spells, and one spell he can swap for any other spell of that same spell level once he decides to use the feature?

You can only swap a spell of the level you first use it on. If you swap charm for magic missile, then you have to swap magic missile next time, since that was the spell learned via the feature. Next time since you picked up comprehend languages via the feature, you swap that one out.

If he waited and used it for the first time on a third level spell, he would be swapping through spells of that level.

 

[DND_Reborn]

You can only swap a spell of the level you first use it on. If you swap charm for magic missile, then you have to swap magic missile next time, since that was the spell learned via the feature. Next time since you picked up comprehend languages via the feature, you swap that one out.

If he waited and used it for the first time on a third level spell, he would be swapping through spells of that level.

So, like I said, then you have one floating slot once you activate the feature that only applies to the spell level you swap out first.

To continue the example then, suppose I have Comprehend Languages (my last swap) and level up. I decide to replace that spell with a 2nd level spell, like Invisibility, as per normal rules. Does Invisibility now become my "swap spell", i.e.f floater? Then I can swap out 2nd level spells instead of first.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You can only swap a spell of the level you first use it on. If you swap charm for magic missile, then you have to swap magic missile next time, since that was the spell learned via the feature. Next time since you picked up comprehend languages via the feature, you swap that one out.

If he waited and used it for the first time on a third level spell, he would be swapping through spells of that level.

That is far far too weak to be what they intend.

That essentially means that you can only open swapping for one level. At that point no one would ever swap a spell until they get to third level or 5th level spells, when there are enough good options to be worthwhile. Swapping a first or second would just kill your chances, because then you could never swap a third level spell.

And, additionally, since Spell Versatility is meant to apply to cantrips as well, if you swapped a cantrip, you could only every swap cantrips and never swap spells.

I do not understand how you could have reached that conclusion from the text of the ability. It is far far too limited.

 

[Maxperson]

To continue the example then, suppose I have Comprehend Languages (my last swap) and level up. I decide to replace that spell with a 2nd level spell, like Invisibility, as per normal rules. Does Invisibility now become my "swap spell", i.e.f floater? Then I can swap out 2nd level spells instead of first.

DM's call on that one.

 

[Ashrym]

That is far far too weak to be what they intend.

No one knows that. That's part of the issue. We're guessing at intent here.

Right now, there's no changing of per long rest at all. The intent per the video was that these classes would swap a spell leveling up more often than some tables do. That's not a demonstration of the intent for a lot of swapping of spells at all. The choice to add spell swapping was because the swapping from leveling up took longer at some tables than others.

The original expectation from leveling up matches a much more limited expectation from long rest swaps.

Then the comment was made that wizards still have their identity despite the changes because swapping one spell per long rest to known spell classes, which implies a more open expectation.

The only thing any of us knows for sure at this point is that the wording needs to be more clear to match the intent.

 

[DND_Reborn]

DM's call on that one.

LOL well it is your interpretation so I am asking you...

I know what I would do and can guess what my DM would do.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No one knows that. That's part of the issue. We're guessing at intent here.

Right now, there's no changing of per long rest at all. The intent per the video was that these classes would swap a spell leveling up more often than some tables do. That's not a demonstration of the intent for a lot of swapping of spells at all. The choice to add spell swapping was because the swapping from leveling up took longer at some tables than others.

The original expectation from leveling up matches a much more limited expectation from long rest swaps.

Then the comment was made that wizards still have their identity despite the changes because swapping one spell per long rest to known spell classes, which implies a more open expectation.

The only thing any of us knows for sure at this point is that the wording needs to be more clear to match the intent.

I think we can say for certain that what I described goes against intent.


What I am describing is that if a class using this swaps a first level spell for another first level spell, then for the rest of their lives they can never swap anything except first level spells.

Nothing in the game I am aware of locks people in like that, where the first time they choose to use an ability it becomes limited to only work in that specific way for the rest of their career.

It makes far more sense, and seems far more in-line with the idea of replacing spells that aren't working for people, that you can pick a spell, and swap it for a spell of the same level. So, if you want to swap your 1st level spell to a different one you can, and the next night you could swap a 4th level spell for a different 4th level spell. That seems to make far more sense than locking you in to only having one level of spell you are able to swap in. Especially considering the vast power difference that would make between those you swap at early levels and those who swap at late levels.

 

[Maxperson]

It makes far more sense, and seems far more in-line with the idea of replacing spells that aren't working for people, that you can pick a spell, and swap it for a spell of the same level. So, if you want to swap your 1st level spell to a different one you can, and the next night you could swap a 4th level spell for a different 4th level spell. That seems to make far more sense than locking you in to only having one level of spell you are able to swap in. Especially considering the vast power difference that would make between those you swap at early levels and those who swap at late levels.

This is way too much. It's just a little bonus to give the PC some versatility. Going from 0 to completely changing every spell you know in a week or two is way over the top. It's like jumping in technology from the bronze age directly to today.

 

[MarkB]

This is way too much. It's just a little bonus to give the PC some versatility. Going from 0 to completely changing every spell you know in a week or two is way over the top. It's like jumping in technology from the bronze age directly to today.

That's a weird analogy, but if you're saying it's overpowered, note the point in the interview where Crawford mentions that it's easier from a design viewpoint to make things overpowered in the playtest and then tune them down than vice versa. So in this case, maybe they went for high flexibility in the UA, with the intention to tone it down if necessary based upon the feedback they received.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is way too much. It's just a little bonus to give the PC some versatility. Going from 0 to completely changing every spell you know in a week or two is way over the top. It's like jumping in technology from the bronze age directly to today.

It might be too much, but I think it is what is intended.

But, I want to address something else, why do people think that casters are going to "change every spell you know" with this?

I've played Paladins, Clerics and Druids and seen other people play them. Those classes can change every single spell they have every single night. And yet, rarely do they change any spell, and I have never seen (or changed myself) more than five. So... why do we think Arcane casters are going to react any differently to having this weaker option than the divine/primal classes have to their stronger option for versatility?