D&D 5E Knowledge skills in combat

[Haffrung]

Why on earth would knowledge not be useable in combat?

Because some of don't play D&D combat as a deliberative, slow-motion meta-game. Each round is 6 seconds. Most combat takes place in darkened caverns, amidst shrieks, yowls, and the clangour of battle. There is not the time or the clarity to coolly assess what exactly you're fighting, cross-reference that with your knowledge of flora and fauna, and then communicate that to your companions in the midst of a wild melee.

Want to use your memory from books and lore to identify the creatures shuffling around a camp that you're spying on? Sure. Want to use your memory of books and lore to identify the tentacled horror that grabbed your shrieking companion from a pit in flickering torchlight 4 seconds ago? Not possible.

 

[Oofta]

Because some of don't play D&D combat as a deliberative, slow-motion meta-game. Each round is 6 seconds. Most combat takes place in darkened caverns, amidst shrieks, yowls, and the clangour of battle. There is not the time or the clarity to coolly assess what exactly you're fighting, cross-reference that with your knowledge of flora and fauna, and then communicate that to your companions in the midst of a wild melee.

Want to use your memory from books and lore to identify the creatures shuffling around a camp that you're spying on? Sure. Want to use your memory of books and lore to identify the tentacled horror that grabbed your shrieking companion from a pit in flickering torchlight 4 seconds ago? Not possible.

If a creature is not clearly seen, the DC should be adjusted or not even possible.

But if I clearly see a grizzly bear, I know what it is instantaneously. Trust me, the last time I saw one while backpacking I didn't have to sit and think about it.

 

[billd91]

If a creature is not clearly seen, the DC should be adjusted or not even possible.

But if I clearly see a grizzly bear, I know what it is instantaneously. Trust me, the last time I saw one while backpacking I didn't have to sit and think about it.

Yeah, the stress of combat in which something can't be fully seen is more of an argument that the difficulty should be higher than the check should be impossible.

 

[Oofta]

Yeah, the stress of combat in which something can't be fully seen is more of an argument that the difficulty should be higher than the check should be impossible.

I do sometimes limit how much information can be relayed in combat - no 5 minute long discussions during your turn - and I may not do a complete info dump until after combat. For example seeing a grizzly bear I remembered the basics of talk calmly to make sure it doesn't get surprised, don't run, get pepper spray ready. Told the other people that if it does charge, just stand still (they frequently bluff charge).

But did I remember every detail about bears that I know? Probably not. Just the ones relevant to seeing one twenty yards away with no barrier between us and the bear.

So in D&D they may see a troll, know they have to use fire to stop it's regen. They may recall afterward that trolls in this region trolls are extremely rare and one hasn't been seen for decades. They may recognize the markings as being trolls from a region to the north or whatever other tidbits are useful for the story.

 

[Haffrung]

If a creature is not clearly seen, the DC should be adjusted or not even possible.

But if I clearly see a grizzly bear, I know what it is instantaneously. Trust me, the last time I saw one while backpacking I didn't have to sit and think about it.

Sure, but how many different animal threats might you run into backpacking? Not too hard to remember bear, cougar, and moose, their habits, and how to deal them. What if there are three or four hundred potential threats? Few of which you've ever seen in person, and instead have only heard tales around a campfire, or notes in a book about.

 

[Oofta]

Sure, but how many different animal threats might you run into backpacking? Not to hard to remember bear, cougar, and moose, their habits, and how to deal them. What if there are three or four hundred potential threats? Most of which even an adventurous type has never seen in person?

Rarity affects the DC in my campaign. But if you know, you know nearly instantly.

I used to be able to amaze my wife by identifying any car on the road the instant she pointed it out. Admittedly I'm not sure I could do that as easily any more, but if I can clearly see a car I can usually tell you the make if not the specific model off the top of my head.

 

[uzirath]

Because some of don't play D&D combat as a deliberative, slow-motion meta-game. Each round is 6 seconds. Most combat takes place in darkened caverns, amidst shrieks, yowls, and the clangour of battle. There is not the time or the clarity to coolly assess what exactly you're fighting, cross-reference that with your knowledge of flora and fauna, and then communicate that to your companions in the midst of a wild melee.

I usually play GURPS (or the related, D&D-esque Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game) with one-second combat turns, so I get the importance of keeping things moving on a tight timescale. I think, though, that a blanket ban of knowledge skills in tactical situations can be quite limiting to many character concepts. If someone wants to play a bookish mage who is an expert on dungeon fauna, what's the harm in that? Instead of a ray-of-frost this turn, the mage rolls a knowledge check vs. an appropriate skill with penalties for darkness, fountains of gore, fear, etc. On a success, they remember something useful that they can shout to their companions. For many monsters, there might not be anything useful available. Sometimes the DM could add some color with a comment like, "Try not to injure its spleen... you can sell it to the potion maker in town!")

Want to use your memory from books and lore to identify the creatures shuffling around a camp that you're spying on? Sure. Want to use your memory of books and lore to identify the tentacled horror that grabbed your shrieking companion from a pit in flickering torchlight 4 seconds ago? Not possible.

Whereas I see a great movie scene here where the wizard dives behind some cover, turns to the thief and says, "Were those glowing sigils I saw on the tentacles? Astral Krakens feed on magic!" At which point the thief sneaks across the map to stop the cleric from casting any attack spells. Fits my sense of the genre and giving everyone interesting roles to play.

None of this is to say that your way is BadWrongFun. Just different than how my tables have usually handled things.

 

[jasper]

Sure, but how many different animal threats might you run into backpacking? Not too hard to remember bear, cougar, and moose, their habits, and how to deal them. What if there are three or four hundred potential threats? Few of which you've ever seen in person, and instead have only heard tales around a campfire, or notes in a book about.

Yes the Alabama Moose is totally evil. You can get rid of it by singing the Auburn Football team war chant.
Yes the Mountain Brook Biker is totally blind. They accidently run over 4 hikers per year.
Yes the Mobile cotton Mouth is an ambush snake. It has been known to eat a whole cow in a single swallow.
Yes Jasper the poster is totally weird and tick off. He been know to post random BS in various threads. He is the most evil critter you will encounter on the boards.

 

[Haffrung]

If someone wants to play a bookish mage who is an expert on dungeon fauna, what's the harm in that?

No harm at all. I'd be perfectly fine with a PC carefully watching a combat with a strange creatures, examining the corpse, and then recalling tales about such a creature, its habits and weaknesses. Just not in combat.

However, I know that approach runs against the grain of modern D&D, where the combat encounter is the default element of play, and PCs are assessed almost exclusively by their effectiveness in those encounters.

 

[ad_hoc]

Because some of don't play D&D combat as a deliberative, slow-motion meta-game. Each round is 6 seconds. Most combat takes place in darkened caverns, amidst shrieks, yowls, and the clangour of battle. There is not the time or the clarity to coolly assess what exactly you're fighting, cross-reference that with your knowledge of flora and fauna, and then communicate that to your companions in the midst of a wild melee.

Want to use your memory from books and lore to identify the creatures shuffling around a camp that you're spying on? Sure. Want to use your memory of books and lore to identify the tentacled horror that grabbed your shrieking companion from a pit in flickering torchlight 4 seconds ago? Not possible.

We're talking about heroes who do 10 impossible things before breakfast but they can't remember something quickly?