D&D 5E Everything wrong with the Wizard Psionics subclass

[Maxperson]

You need a hand empty or a feat. Other than that, it's the same thing. I wouldn't call that a meaningfully different mechanic, particularly since a sorcerer already has a specific ability to do just that.

Sorcerers have no ability to cast every single spell with no somatic or verbal components. They can get very close if they use up every single one of their sorcery points on doing so. That's two differences right there. They can't do them all, where a psion could. And there's a cost to doing so, where there would be no cost for a psion. Those two things are meaningful differences.

 

[Mistwell]

Sorcerers have no ability to cast every single spell with no somatic or verbal components.

Now you're quibbling over how many spells they should be able to cast. Your assumption a psion would be able to cast more spells in this way than a sorcerer using all their points seems based on an unfounded assumption. And there is no cost to it - all points go to doing this, so points are not a thing for this class, which is as intended. Mechanically, it's working fine to produce the desired result...unless you want them MORE powerful than a sorcerer of course.

 

[Arnwolf666]

Sorcerers have no ability to cast every single spell with no somatic or verbal components. They can get very close if they use up every single one of their sorcery points on doing so. That's two differences right there. They can't do them all, where a psion could. And there's a cost to doing so, where there would be no cost for a psion. Those two things are meaningful differences.

Maybe instead of creating an entirely new class just make it so sorcerers don’t use verbal, somatic, and material components.

 

[Maxperson]

Your assumption a psion would be able to cast more spells in this way than a sorcerer using all their points seems based on an unfounded assumption.

No I'm not. I'm saying they can cast 100% of their spells that way, and that's true. Sorcerers cannot cast 100% of them that way. That's also true. No assumptions made.

Mechanically, it's working fine to produce the desired result...unless you want them MORE powerful than a sorcerer of course.

You're the one making assumptions here. You are assuming that there are no other class abilities for sorcerers and psions which can balance the two classes out.

 

[Maxperson]

Maybe instead of creating an entirely new class just make it so sorcerers don’t use verbal, somatic, and material components.

Except that sorcerers do use those things. To change that one thing for "psions" and nothing else about the sorcerer will make them more powerful than sorcerers, as Mistwell pointed out when he assumed that nothing else would be done to balance the psion class against sorcerers.

The sorcerer class fails the psion test on other levels as well. They have to access the weave. Charisma would not be the spellcasting stat for psions. Psions would not have sorcery points. They would not have metamagic.
They needs psion abilities. Not sorcerer ones.

 

[the Jester]

Generally agreed. This isn't a very well-designed subclass, and psion/psionicist is a broad enough concept to be worthy of a full class.

3. Thought Form - What the heck? That isn't a thing. That's never been a thing.

I just have to point out that 3e and 4e both had this as an option for psionic pcs in the form of a prestige class and a paragon path, IIRC.

 

[Mistwell]

No I'm not. I'm saying they can cast 100% of their spells that way, and that's true. Sorcerers cannot cast 100% of them that way. That's also true. No assumptions made.

Sorry I am not explaining well enough.

In my example the number of spells a sorcerer could cast in that manner using points = X.

The assumption that the Psion would be able to cast more that X spells seems false.

 

[Maxperson]

Sorry I am not explaining well enough.

Assume the number of spells a sorcerer could cast in that manner using points = X.

The assumption that the Psion would be able to cast more that X spells seems false.

And again, I'm not at all assuming that.

I'm saying that whatever the number psions can use is, 100% of them will be free of any somatic, material and verbal components. Those things are not a part of that class.

I'm also saying that whatever their number, sorcerers cannot use 100% of them free of those things. They are in fact a part of that class.

It doesn't matter whether sorcerers can cast more or less spells than the psion can use mental abilities. That's irrelevant. All that's relevant is that somatic, material and verbal components are a part of sorcerers, but not psions.

 

[Salthorae]

If you bind a wizard's hands, he cannot cast any spell with a somatic component. A psion could. If you take away his component pouch, he literally cannot cast any spell that requires a component. A psion could. If you gag the wizard, he cannot cast any spell with a verbal component. A psion could.

So in what way is the Psion balanced against the Wizard or any other caster then?

I think that is one of the main reasons why most tables never let psionics into their games. The psion is mechanically just a better option than other casters because you can't stop their "spellcasting" short of knocking them out or having Psionic dampening room or something. Other casters can be contained and controlled (for the most part) in some way or another. Either through removing their components/foci or binding their hands, or gagging them, or all three.

That you can't do that to a Psion is somewhat problematic. It just makes them better.

Psionic Sorcery
6th-level Aberrant Mind feature

Beginning at 6th level, when you cast any of the spells gained from your Psionic Spells feature, you can cast it by expending a spell slot as normal or by spending a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level. If you cast the spell using sorcery points, it requires no components.

So they are toying with this concept for Sorcerer already. Yes it's at 6th level, not 1st, and it's for a limited number of spells, but it's working towards what you're asking for.

I still don't think they can have it for free for every power/spell. It just makes that version of a power/spell user inherently better than any other version out there.

 

[Maxperson]

So in what way is the Psion balanced against the Wizard or any other caster then?

I think that is one of the main reasons why most tables never let psionics into their games. The psion is mechanically just a better option than other casters because you can't stop their "spellcasting" short of knocking them out or having Psionic dampening room or something. Other casters can be contained and controlled (for the most part) in some way or another. Either through removing their components/foci or binding their hands, or gagging them, or all three.

That you can't do that to a Psion is somewhat problematic. It just makes them better.

Their extra class and subclass abilities can be weaker.

I still don't think they can have it for free for every power/spell. It just makes that version of a power/spell user inherently better than any other version out there.

In one way, sure. It can be balanced by weakening the psions in other areas. Remove cantrips from them for starters. If they don't have infinite attacks like the other casters, they will run out of resources faster.

If they don't get their stuff free of components, then they aren't psions. They're something else.