Everything wrong with the Wizard Psionics subclass

Arnwolf666

Adventurer
Hey you're right. Rangers and Paladins are just fighters with a different name an mechanics and fill the same role. Sorcerers and warlocks are wizards with a different name and mechanics and fill that role. Druids are just clerics with a different name and mechanics and fill that role. We can get rid of lots of classes! Class mistakes abound!
If you really think that than toss them. You don’t need them. I guess we need a class for wizards that wear pointy hats.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If you really think that than toss them. You don’t need them. I guess we need a class for wizards that wear pointy hats.
Right back atcha. If they make psions, toss them. You don't need a class you don't want. Many of us do want it.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I'll just leave this here. For those saying that there's not many who want psions, check out this thread poll. Yes, the sample size here makes polling automatically suspect, but the psion has 3x the votes of the next nearest class............the ever popular warlord.

 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
I'll just leave this here. For those saying that there's not many who want psions, check out this thread poll. Yes, the sample size here makes polling automatically suspect, but the psion has 3x the votes of the next nearest class............the ever popular warlord.

Yeah. I voted for Psion in that poll. I do think it should be a class.

That said, if all I get in 5e is subclass versions of that, I‘ll be fine and still able to play Psion with the various subclasses (assuming those see print at some point).
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yeah. I voted for Psion in that pole. I do think it should be a class.

That said, if all I get in 5e is subclass versions of that, I‘ll be fine and still able to play Psion with the various subclasses (assuming those see print at some point).
I actually liked the Soulknife and Psychic warrior as subclasses. Those are not purely psionic and can be modeled with a combination of normal class and subclass abilities. It's the Psion that needs a new class.
 

Arnwolf666

Adventurer
And then you go against that by trying to cludge them into an existing class which is epic fail. There isn't an existing class that can be a psion.
No. I always thought the sorcerer could be the best Psionic class. Psionics is so modern. It just doesn’t fit. But a sorcerer with minor tweaks fits the bill.
 

Ashrym

Hero
I think some of us might be jumping to conclusions. If the wizard subclass is meant to be "the psionicist" class then I would call that an epic fail, personally. If the wizard subclass is meant to be a wizard who studies psionics through magic and has spells to create psionic effects then it's not bad, although I think the 6th level ability is over the top because it seems a lot more powerful than typical 6th level abilities other traditions gain.

I absolutely endorse soulknife as a rogue subclass. The psychic assassin style suits the class. That doesn't mean it wouldn't also work as a monk subclass but I prefer sneak attack damage on my psychic blade. That seems very appropriate, IMO.

I endorse the psychic warrior as a fighter subclass but I think a list of psionic options from which to choose would spice it up a lot.

Maybe most was the wrong word. Many is probably better. But I rarely see groups, even in AL, pay much attention to tracking components unless it’s some super costly one
Verbal and somatic are important. Other spells and some features are better or worse because of those components. Material components other than those with costs are typically handwaved by foci or a component pouches but those can still be important because they create potential weakness to exploit.

I don't make anyone track individual material components with out cost if they have a focus or pouch. That's kind of the point in having those. If they lose those for whatever reason (this is not common or typical to be clear) then finding and tracking components can add a bit of flavor to the class. Escaped prisoners hunting down bat guano, for example. It breaks up the rinse and repeat of spell casting if it's not over-used.

Calm Emotions, Enthrall, Zone of Truth, Guidance, Commune (Psionic Version), Ectoplasmic Shaping, Astral Constructs, Call to Mind, Deja Vu, low level precognition, low level two-way telepathy, some good low level sources and varieties of all levels of psychic damage, Synesthete (use one sense through another sense), Body Equilibrium (walk on non-solid surface), Psychic Bodyguard (you make another character's Wisdom/Will saving throws for it), Ubiquitous Vision, Psionic Stunning/Blast, Telekinetic Force (3rd level), Empathic Feedback (your foe takes damage when you do), Power Leech (you drain power points/spells from a foe), Psychokinetic Charge, Telekinetic Maneuver, Dream Message, Brutalize Wounds (creatures more damage than usual for from normal damage), Suspend Life, Bend Reality (like a lesser and lower level version of Wish but for psions), Energy Conversion, Divert Teleport, Assimilate (incorporate a creature into your own body), remove the powers of others, Microcosm (creature forever lives in a world of their own imagination), Link Senses, Psychometabolistic Healing (e.g., Body Adjustment, Mend Body), Share Pain, Body Purification (restore ability damage), Sustenance (go without food or water), Adapt Body (body adjusts to hostile environments), and so on.
To be fair, most (not all) of those are just the equivalent of existing spells with a different flavor but essentially the same basic effect.

I think if I were to actually develop the class myself it would still follow the sorcerer basic chassis (swapping out sorcerer points for something more appropriate), possibly spell point variant, and I would just place the appropriate spells on the power list instead of renaming or duplicating the same concept for flavor. Then fill it out as needed with powers that don't exist on the spell lists with some unique powers.

I'm not sure that WotC was saying the class wasn't going to exist so much as it wasn't going to use a new and unique system. I think it's still coming but will be more reminiscent of spell progression structure.
 

Aldarc

Adventurer
To be fair, most (not all) of those are just the equivalent of existing spells with a different flavor but essentially the same basic effect.
The question, however, was what a Psion could do (or expected to do) that a Wizard cannot. Some of which comes from the Bard and Cleric spell lists. Some are things that come from the Psion power list from 3e/Dreamscarred Press.
 

Ashrym

Hero
The question, however, was what a Psion could do (or expected to do) that a Wizard cannot. Some of which comes from the Bard and Cleric spell lists. Some are things that come from the Psion power list from 3e/Dreamscarred Press.
Fair enough, but the wizard isn't the best example for comparison if it's just a spell list comparison. The real difference isn't the mechanics so much as the list of powers vs spells.

My point was that most of those powers already exist in the form of spells or are just flavored variations of existing spells.

I would also say the general concept of a seer vs a diviner or a kineticist vs an evoker or a telepath vs enchanter isn't all that significant. That's more of a flavor thing than a mechanical thing. Flavor is easy to change and minor mechanical differences aren't that hard to compensate. That's why I think we might still see the mystic class. Developing and testing a new system take more resources than adapting a system.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Fair enough, but the wizard isn't the best example for comparison if it's just a spell list comparison. The real difference isn't the mechanics so much as the list of powers vs spells.

My point was that most of those powers already exist in the form of spells or are just flavored variations of existing spells.
Maybe so, but they require a new class for the class abilities that are for Psions, as well as a list of powers that is comprised of "spells" from multiple other classes, as well as some unique ones.
 

Mistwell

Hero
And again, I'm not at all assuming that.

I'm saying that whatever the number psions can use is, 100% of them will be free of any somatic, material and verbal components. Those things are not a part of that class.

I'm also saying that whatever their number, sorcerers cannot use 100% of them free of those things. They are in fact a part of that class.

It doesn't matter whether sorcerers can cast more or less spells than the psion can use mental abilities. That's irrelevant. All that's relevant is that somatic, material and verbal components are a part of sorcerers, but not psions.
You can make exactly what you are talking about with a sorcerer already. That is my point. You can select the class "sorcerer" and cast all your spells with no components and call it "psion". The mechanics of the sorcerer class permit that style of play without mechanical changes. You may as a player be aware that you're spending points to make that function and selecting only psionic-feeling spells to make that work and casting only as many spells per day as you have points to eliminate the components, but none of that is a mechanical barrier to achieving that objective using that class.
 

Aebir-Toril

std::cout << "Hi" << '\n';
You can make exactly what you are talking about with a sorcerer already. That is my point. You can select the class "sorcerer" and cast all your spells with no components and call it "psion". The mechanics of the sorcerer class permit that style of play without mechanical changes. You may as a player be aware that you're spending points to make that function and selecting only psionic-feeling spells to make that work and casting only as many spells per day as you have points to eliminate the components, but none of that is a mechanical barrier to achieving that objective using that class.
Again, irrelevant. I can play a Wizard and call it a Sorcerer. This argument is supremely weak.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You can make exactly what you are talking about with a sorcerer already.
That's simply not possible. It's 100% impossible to have spell components, verbal components and somatic components not be a part of the sorcerer class. Not only are they objectively a part of that class, even if you do use your points on the ability, but you cannot make 100% of your spell fail to use all three of those things. Therefore, it's impossible to achieve what I want with the sorcerer class.

That is my point. You can select the class "sorcerer" and cast all your spells with no components and call it "psion".
Your point is objectively wrong. It's not possible to do that, even before getting into cantrips which can be cast thousands of times per day and have those components to them. Are you really arguing that sorcerers have thousands of points to use?

The mechanics of the sorcerer class permit that style of play without mechanical changes. You may as a player be aware that you're spending points to make that function and selecting only psionic-feeling spells to make that work and casting only as many spells per day as you have points to eliminate the components, but none of that is a mechanical barrier to achieving that objective using that class.
ROFL So now I have to gimp my character to falsely achieve something that truly needs another class?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You may as a player be aware that you're spending points to make that function and selecting only psionic-feeling spells to make that work and casting only as many spells per day as you have points to eliminate the components, but none of that is a mechanical barrier to achieving that objective using that class.
To further point out just how ridiculous this suggestion is, I'm going to point out that you don't even get sorcery points until 2nd level.

Me: "Well met adventurers. I have heard that you are seeking to defeat the curse that has struck this town and would like to join you."

Party: "What is your profession?"

Me: "I'm a novice Psion."

Party: "And what can you do?"

Me: "Nothing."

Party: "Nothing at all?"

Me: "Nope."

Party: "Then how do you know you are a Psion?"

Me: "Well, I'm just kinda guessing at this point, but I have a really good feeling that after about a half dozen fights where I use this staff here worse than most farmers, I'm going to be able to do stuff."

Party: "Like what?"

Me: "Well, I'll have four cantrips and three minor powers."

Party: "Ahh, so you'll be able to do all of that?"

Me: "Nope. I'll only be able to do two things all day. If I use 2 cantrips, I won't be able to use 2 of my more powerful spells. However, if I will also be able to use 2 spells that are more powerful than cantrips, but then no cantrips. @Mistwell thinks that makes a lot more sense than actually having a class of my own. I don't get it, though."

Party: "Well, we're going to leave you here and pick up that novice sorcerer over there who even now can use cantrips all day long and still cast 2 spells on top of that. The bartender has a job opening, though. Maybe after enough bar fights, you'll become that substandard sorcerer you were talking about."

Me: "......"
 

Mistwell

Hero
ROFL So now I have to gimp my character to falsely achieve something that truly needs another class?
And now, after several times going back and forth, you're finally caught up to where we started this where I said you were making a power level assumption using a false baseline. It's not "gimping" and there was nothing "false" in how you can use the mechanics of a sorcerer to achieve a psion goal. The baseline is NOT some number of spells based on what a sorcerer can normally cast. Which is why I said you're assuming that. And you just did. You caught up now?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And now, after several times going back and forth, you're finally caught up to where we started this where I said you were making a power level assumption using a false baseline. It's not "gimping" and there was nothing "false" in how you can use the mechanics of a sorcerer to achieve a psion goal. The baseline is NOT some number of spells based on what a sorcerer can normally cast. Which is why I said you're assuming that. And you just did. You caught up now?
No. You are objectively gimping the Psion with your suggestion. Hell, if we follow your suggestion the "Psion" can't use a single power before hitting 2nd level. Your suggestion is major fail, and with no assumptions on my part.
 

SkidAce

Adventurer
I want what @Maxperson wants, but I understand(?) what @Mistwell is saying.

Because while waiting for a psion class, I have been using the sorcerer chassis.

No components rule. Use any SP to meta the appropriate psion flavored spells as needed.

I don't make them use their SP to do no components, I ignore components for the "psion".

Dispel Magic does not work on psionics, and Dispel Psionics does not work in magic.

This is carrying us through the wait. (The main villan is a psion (really a battlemaster/sorcerer) with mutated ability to mindflayer blast.
 

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