D&D 5E Everything wrong with the Wizard Psionics subclass

[The Crimson Binome]

4e characters went to level 30. A level 11 4e PC is roughly equivalent to a level 7 5e PC, so giving it at 6th isn't a big shift.

The fact that 4E characters went to 30 does not mean that a level 30 character in 4E is equivalent to a level 20 character in 5E. The level 20 character is supposed to be saving the world, in either edition. Fireball is available at level 5, either way. The only difference is that 4E assumed characters would keep getting more powerful beyond level 20.

 

[Salthorae]

1. Psionic Focus - Why is this not replacing your spellbook at least? Why the damage focus on a traditionally utility-focused concept?

This was my main issue/point as well. If they'd just gone one more step and had the psionic focus act as a Power Stone from 3.5 or even the FR Tel'kiira that could store any knowledge, but also act as a spellbook

Does it function as a spellbook, requiring the usual expenditures of gold to scribe spells into it?

Yes, though less scribing and more "incense and meditation to transfer teh knowledge" but at the same time and cost a normal scribing into a book.

if they'd done this one change, then with the shift (by me) to Spell Points you have a psionicist. Some of hte other abilities are weird, but I could live with them.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

1. Psionic Focus - Why is this not replacing your spellbook at least?

This is why a wizard subclass can never work as a dedicated psionicist. In 5e subclasses can only ever add features, they can never subtract. Similar problem with the spell list - you can add spells to it but you can't remove spells that don't fit the theme. Hence the Psychic Spells pick it yourself nonsense.

It doesn't mean you couldn't have a subclass for a regular wizard who dabbles in mind magic, but that's not the same thing at all.

 

[DEFCON 1]

This is why a wizard subclass can never work as a dedicated psionicist. In 5e subclasses can only ever add features, they can never subtract.

Yeah, but as we just saw in last month's UA... we can now apparently replace.

So all you'd need is to add a Variant Class Feature that replaces 'Spellbook' with 'Psicrystal', allowing the person to put their "spells" or "disciplines" into this crystal focus and every morning you meditate to draw out the spells/disciplines you prepare for the day. And then if the spell components thing is that big of a deal... the psicrystal becomes your arcane focus and in the rarest occasions you need a component with a gold piece value... you add a Variant feature to the Mentalist that allows you to spend that amount of gold not for the actual item, but in... whatever chalk, incense, meditative or mental blah-di-blah you need to get your mind and body focused to use and cast that spell/discipline.

Similar problem with the spell list - you can add spells to it but you can't remove spells that don't fit the theme. Hence the Psychic Spells pick it yourself nonsense.

It doesn't mean you couldn't have a subclass for a regular wizard who dabbles in mind magic, but that's not the same thing at all.

But this is the issue with the players is it not? You don't trust the players to actually select spells on theme, and thus you feel like we need a whole new class that only supplies thematically appropriate spells in its list?

While I can understand that way of thinking, I myself have never been one to go along with the idea of adding/errataing stuff to the game because some people don't have it within them to stay on target. Now if there were a whole bunch of traditional Psion abilities that weren't already in the game as arcane spells... then yeah, adding those abilities as part of a new Psion class would make all the sense in the world. But if all the features a Psion would want are already in the game as arcane spells... but the only reason to not have a psion just use them is because people are too afraid their players couldn't help themselves and would go "off-brand" and pick up non-psionic themed spells too (just because those spells were "too good" not to take)...

...that's when I just wonder "Is it really WotC's job to save players from themselves?"

If you're the DM and you want your psionic Mentalist wizard to have a curated spell list that only includes spells that could be considered psionically themed... then just do it. You don't need WotC to create entirely new things in all manner of book just so don't have to.

I have a player currently in my Eberron game who wanted an aberrant dragonmark based on time manipulation. So he's playing a Sorcerer with a subclass I created for it, and a curated spell list that only has spells in it that I was able to re-fluff as aging up / aging down / forward in time / backwards in time etc. etc. stuff. The spell list for each level is much smaller than the Sorcerer's is, but it does include spells from outside the standard Sorcerer list because they were thematically on point. And it's worked. I've never once had him throw a spell that felt "wrong" for a chronomancer because I took the time to make things thematically on point. And I didn't have to ask WotC to make it for me.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This is why a wizard subclass can never work as a dedicated psionicist. In 5e subclasses can only ever add features, they can never subtract. Similar problem with the spell list - you can add spells to it but you can't remove spells that don't fit the theme. Hence the Psychic Spells pick it yourself nonsense.

It doesn't mean you couldn't have a subclass for a regular wizard who dabbles in mind magic, but that's not the same thing at all.

Quite. The psychic spells pick n mix bag really demonstrates WotC is trying to replace Psion with this rough beast, this frankensteinian monstrosity. If they were wizard with a side of Psionics that homebrew-esque list would be moot.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

@DEFCON 1 Nah, it's not a "problem with players", it's a problem with the structure of the game. Wizards are supposed to be able to learn all the spells. That's how they're balanced and designed. They obtain spells by learning them from the books of others and so on.

You're talking like they're sorcerers or Bards who pick and choose every spell they know. But they aren't. They don't work that way and aren't balanced that way. Your basic thesis is ruined by that.

A sorcerer based Psion knock off could do a better job than this hideous mess. This is about how the game works and is balanced.

Further, the really trashy design thing is, which you also skipped over, that they can learn only Psionics spells (nerfing themselves severely in the process, by crippling the great advantage wizards have, flexibility and wide choices), but they still don't actually work like psionic powers. Only one cantrip and one mid-level spell do.

TLDR that argument does not work with a wizard base. It might with a Sorc base (but I think Sorcs are actually missing a lot of these spells).

 

[DEFCON 1]

@DEFCON 1 Nah, it's not a "problem with players", it's a problem with the structure of the game. Wizards are supposed to be able to learn all the spells. That's how they're balanced and designed. They obtain spells by learning them from the books of others and so on.

Except wizards DON'T learn all the spells. Yes, they theoretically COULD, but none ever do. Because quite frankly it costs just too much gold to scribe all of them in their spellbooks, no DM ever puts ever single spell out their into their game world for the wizard player to find and then attempt to scribe, and there are just plenty of spells in the Wizard list that are just plain unnecessary for Wizard PCs to take (based on the make-up of the rest of the party.)

So no, I do not in any way believe the wizard class is "balanced" against the other classes in the game because they theoretically could have every single spell in the Player's Handbook available to them. That's not how WotC's "game balance" works.

What matters is the reality of playing the game. And the reality is that Wizard players will select the spells they like and thus usually prepare the same roll-out of spells every morning (with a couple changes here and there based on need.) So if the list of disciplines our theoretical new Psion class would have are the exact same abilities that are already in the Wizard class spell list, then what exactly is the Psion getting that warrants a new class?

Now absolutely... if the class features for a Psion (and the subclass features of whatever subclasses were made) would have game mechanics that were markedly different that what the Wizard, Warlock, or Sorcerer currently have as class features... then yes, I could get behind the idea of an independent Psion class. So for instance, the same way the Sorcerer gets Metamagic (and thus a whole specially subsystem that screws around with the spells the sorcerer casts)... if our Psion had its own subsystem that screws around with its disciplines... then yes, I'm all for it.

But the problem for me is that up to this point, all I've really been hearing for why the Psion HAS to be different is "No spellbook", "no spell components", and "no spell list that includes non-psionic spells". But the first two could easily be made as Variant Class Features of the Wizard, and the last one as I said was merely just a player choosing to play to theme and only select spells for their "psicrystal" that were psionically-themed appropriate.

If someone can list for me all the actual things this Psion class should be able to do that can't already done by the Wizard... I'd be happy to change my tune. But thus far in all the threads we've now had on this... no one has presented ANY psionic abilities that are different and not already represented in the game.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I can make a proper list when I get home if you like, but wizard is definitely not the base class you are looking for. By your logic we can fold Clerics, Bards, Sorcerers, Warlocks and so on into Wizard.

 

[Perun]

Intent is a factor here. If the Psionic Wizard is intended to replace the Psion, then yes, it's a bit of a mess. But that's not the intent that I'm currently getting. I'm getting a Wizard that studies Psionics the same way a Wizard studies the school of Enchantment. Therefore this is a Wizard that uses Psionic spells, but is still primarily a Wizard. More a Cerebremancer than a full Psion.

I'd like to agree with that, but the bit that worries me are the psionic spells bearing names of well-known psionic attacks and defences from editions past. That could mean that i) the psionicist wizard is intended to replace the 'classical' psion, or ii) that any future psionic class will use spells... I'm not sure I like either option...

 

[Coroc]

Except wizards DON'T learn all the spells. Yes, they theoretically COULD, but none ever do. Because quite frankly it costs just too much gold to scribe all of them in their spellbooks, no DM ever puts ever single spell out their into their game world for the wizard player to find and then attempt to scribe, and there are just plenty of spells in the Wizard list that are just plain unnecessary for Wizard PCs to take (based on the make-up of the rest of the party.)

Well in my greyhawk campaign the wizards theoretically could learn all spells available and more since all are for sale at the Mages guild. But especially the higher level ones do cost a hefty amount. So at least I really make it theoretically possible.
Otoh I have the houserule that a wiz has to have an int of 11 for 1st level spells an int of 12 for a second level spell and so on up to an int of 19 for a 9th level spell so there is that, I request investment in this form.