D&D 2E Which is the better fantasy rpg and why: D&D 5e or Pathfinder 2e?

[BryonD]

I think the rise of streaming with Critical Role and the like has had something to do with it too. Of course CR switched from PF to 5e when they started airing their sessions.

You think those ESPN jocks were cool with D&D because they have been enjoying Critical Role?
Seriously, no offense intended. I just think we get an insiders point of view and assume that the things that influence us must be influencing everyone else.

There is certainly a lot of synergy. You can't remove any one piece and get the same end result. But I continue to see discussions outside the "gamer" community that focus on the benefits that are now seen on the people who have been playing for DECADES. Obviously, they are not talking about 5E. Frequently those conversations come around to "and now the hugely popular Fifth Edition has taken the hobby to new levels". But none of that would happen without the underlying changes in the larger culture.

 

[BryonD]

Here are what I think are the 2 most important factors:

I think there are a lot more than 2 factors. But, again, both of you points only apply to the shift from 1% to 3%.
Neither apply at all to the ESPN jocks. And those ESPN jocks are good representation of the change that truly has happened in the population at large.

 

[BookBarbarian]

You think those ESPN jocks were cool with D&D because they have been enjoying Critical Role?
Seriously, no offense intended. I just think we get an insiders point of view and assume that the things that influence us must be influencing everyone else.

There is certainly a lot of synergy. You can't remove any one piece and get the same end result. But I continue to see discussions outside the "gamer" community that focus on the benefits that are now seen on the people who have been playing for DECADES. Obviously, they are not talking about 5E. Frequently those conversations come around to "and now the hugely popular Fifth Edition has taken the hobby to new levels". But none of that would happen without the underlying changes in the larger culture.

I think that WotC has said that out of new players more than half have seen streamed D&D games before playing. A part of that is that 5e is very stream friendly compared to 4E or Pathfinder.

And yes I do think seeing Jocks Machina (Big guys like Travis and Joe) completely bro-ing out over D&D does have an influence on those guys too. It feeds into the word of mouth when you can say "Hey check this out" and share someone a youtube clip, instead of hey come over to my place for 3 hours.

But you are probably right. Game of Thrones and the like making fantasy popular with the main stream, but without having such easy access to people seeing the game itself I think the new bro-geek would have just found a different fantasy outlet.

Edit: The rise of fantasy football has also gotten geekbros used to simple math so that may have influence has well

 

[abirdcall]

I don't want to veer into violent agreement.
5E is clearly a strong mainstream game. But, as the post I quoted observes, people NOT playing the game have become far more accepting of it. The tidal wave of cultural acceptance is overwhelmingly populated by people who are now "accepting" but still not actually "playing". But once you have that acceptance people who likely would have become gamers decades ago in a more conducive culture, have a better path to actually getting into the hobby.

People are more accepting of the game for 2 main reasons:

They know people who play.
They have heard that the game is inclusive now. People aren't going to be accepting of a sexist game.

I used to be embarrassed to tell people that I play D&D. It had the image of socially challenged men crunching numbers and pretending to kill things. Now it has the image of a healthy and diverse group of people being social with one another.

Now I can tell someone I just met that I play D&D and most of the time they say, 'oh yeah, I have a friend who plays, it sounds neat'. That never happened to me before 5e.

I think there are a lot more than 2 factors.

Read what I said again. Obviously there aren't only 2 factors. But there are going to be some factors which are more important than others.

But, again, both of you points only apply to the shift from 1% to 3%.

Your numbers are wrong. Since the release of 5e the RPG market has increased by 4 1/3 times. Though doesn't tell us everything as we need to know the difference in purchases per player.

The RPG market went from $15 millon in 2013 to $65 million in 2018. A lot of that $15 million wasn't D&D either, this was when Pathfinder was the #1 RPG. I am going to guess that the vast majority of the $40 million that has increased has been directly 5e.

What we do know is that there are somewhere over 20 million D&D players right now. There were not 7 million 4e players.

 

[BryonD]

Read what I said again. Obviously there aren't only 2 factors. But there are going to be some factors which are more important than others.

Chill out man, you are over-reacting.

Your numbers are wrong. Since the release of 5e the RPG market has increased by 4 1/3 times. Though doesn't tell us everything as we need to know the difference in purchases per player.

The RPG market went from $15 millon in 2013 to $65 million in 2018. A lot of that $15 million wasn't D&D either, this was when Pathfinder was the #1 RPG. I am going to guess that the vast majority of the $40 million that has increased has been directly 5e.

What we do know is that there are somewhere over 20 million D&D players right now. There were not 7 million 4e players.

OK, I clearly stated I was making up numbers. So I don't think it is a big deal. I completely accept 4 1/2 times.

The point remains that there is a huge change in people who haven't played and still won't play. Talking over and over exclusively about insider points of view is blind to the bigger picture.

As I said, people outside the bubble are frequntly talking about issues that predate 5E by decades. There is a long evolution here. 3X was so popular when it came out that people complained that it was stifling innovation. To much D20 was being published to the exclusion of anything else. If an explosion inside the bubble was going to change the world outside the bubble, then it would have happened then. But it didn't. And based on your numbers I'd guess that 5E is roughly 10X where 3E stood nearly 20 years ago. And the difference in changes happened outside the bubble. And then WotC made a great game that latched on to that with total excellence.

 

[abirdcall]

Chill out man, you are over-reacting.

Don't tell me what to do.

OK, I clearly stated I was making up numbers. So I don't think it is a big deal. I completely accept 4 1/2 times.

Why make up numbers? Are you just making all this up to have an argument for the sake of it?

The point remains that there is a huge change in people who haven't played and still won't play. Talking over and over exclusively about insider points of view is blind to the bigger picture.

As I said, people outside the bubble are frequntly talking about issues that predate 5E by decades. There is a long evolution here. 3X was so popular when it came out that people complained that it was stifling innovation. To much D20 was being published to the exclusion of anything else. If an explosion inside the bubble was going to change the world outside the bubble, then it would have happened then. But it didn't. And based on your numbers I'd guess that 5E is roughly 10X where 3E stood nearly 20 years ago. And the difference in changes happened outside the bubble. And then WotC made a great game that latched on to that with total excellence.

None of this makes any sense.

 

[dagger]

Which is the better fantasy rpg and why: D&D 5e or Pathfinder 2e?

It’s subjective to each person so.....

 

[Ruin Explorer]

With due respect, I think this is a perspective that only an experienced (dare I say jaded?) gamer would have. To a brand-new player, there is no "hidebound" or "exciting and distinctive." It's all exciting and distinctive, because it's all new. And brand-new players are where 5E is getting a lot of its success from.

I remember being a new player very well. That period continues for, oooh, maybe 12 months? 24 at the outside. And even within that period there are products that don't appeal to you. There was tons of AD&D 1E/2E stuff I didn't want to touch with a bargepole when I started playing in 1989-ish. Other stuff was deeply disappointing - and that actually was problematic. I wasn't hugely interested in other RPGs until I bought some AD&D stuff that was just kinda rubbish, I forget what. I'm not suggesting people will "dump 5E", but weak or tepid material can certainly help dampen enthusiasm, even when you're new.

So this idea that it's fine to do a poor job with new material because new players are uncritical and wide-eyed seems to me a rather facile and short-term-ist one. Someone who was "brand-new" 3-5 years ago (remember, 5E has been out since 2014) is definitely not the uncritical stars-in-the-eyes person you think they are.

Also we live in the age of the internet, the greatest machine for turning people from wide-eyed and excited to embittered cynics since they banned military conscription, and trust me, you can go from "I love this game and everything about it!" to "noveau grognard" in under six months thanks to that there world wide web...

 

[Tony Vargas]

They have heard that the game is inclusive now. People aren't going to be accepting of a sexist game.

I have to wonder why it took so long to hear that. The TSR era of D&D was decidedly behind the times (though 2e was at least less overtly offensive), but the WotC versions have been inclusive from the beginning.

 

[generic]

I have to wonder why it took so long to hear that. The TSR era of D&D was decidedly behind the times (though 2e was at least less overtly offensive), but the WotC versions have been inclusive from the beginning.

I think that 5E's popularity is a combination of multiple factors, not merely diversity in art and rules.

The simplified and streamlined ruleset (too simplistic for my tastes, sometimes) was probably one of the greatest selling points.