D&D General No Fixed Location -- dynamically rearranging items, monsters, and other game elements in the interests of storytelling

[lordabdul]

I can understand someone's practice and still hate it, right?

Of course, of course, I was just being facetious.

 

[Oofta]

If you are running a homebrew campaign, I think the concept of a neutral DM is a myth. Whether I place a troll in a room a month before the adventure starts or as a improv because they decided to investigate the howling caves that I had just thrown in at the last minute as flavor text it doesn't matter. In either case, I'm throwing a challenge in that is appropriate to the group's capacity and level.

That's a completely different issue from fudging the dice or guaranteeing that the PCs always "win".

 

[hawkeyefan]

My view is that "neutral DM" should still be producing "best possible experience at the table." If that's not what's happening, then that's probably an issue with the adventure or campaign design, assuming the DM is otherwise competent at running the game.

The two things don’t have to be mutually exclusive. But if they’re at odds, there’s a very clear choice for many of us.

Which one that will be goes back to that gulf I was talking about.

For me, there’s no way DM neutrality trumps a fun game.

But as with most things this also depends on the expectations of the players.

 

[iserith]

For me, there’s no way DM neutrality trumps a fun game.

The game straight up tells us what the goal is, regardless of approach: everyone having fun and creating an exciting, memorable story by playing. A so-called "neutral DM" who isn't achieving that is failing and, I would hope, not on purpose.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

My view is that "neutral DM" should still be producing "best possible experience at the table." If that's not what's happening, then that's probably an issue with the adventure or campaign design, assuming the DM is otherwise competent at running the game.

This is a good statement to move the discussion forward. What if we are discussing this linearly when instead we should be discussing several dimensions?

One axis would be the amount of pre-planning and prep work a DM has for a session: Planned-Neutral-Improv
One axis would be the amount of "fudging" a GM uses in their game. Rigid-Neutral-Flexible
If you really want to get fancy you could have a third axis of: Sandbox-Neutral-Linear

I am an Improv-Flexible-Sandbox DM.

 

[lordabdul]

A so-called "neutral DM" who isn't achieving that is failing and, I would hope, not on purpose.

I think @hawkeyefan was mostly talking about the fact that, given a situation where the adventure is at an impasse somehow, if the choices are "stay neutral, let the PCs get out of it even if it means an hour of painfully boring and frustrating play" and "fudge a thing or two, get back to exciting things in 5 minutes", going with the 5-minutes-to-fun-land option isn't a bad choice. Saying "well you shouldn't have ended up in this hole in the first place", or "it's the fault of the badly designed module, you should have spotted that early on" isn't very helpful IMHO.

 

[iserith]

I think @hawkeyefan was mostly talking about the fact that, given a situation where the adventure is at an impasse somehow, if the choices are "stay neutral, let the PCs get out of it even if it means an hour of painfully boring and frustrating play" and "fudge a thing or two, get back to exciting things in 5 minutes", going with the 5-minutes-to-fun-land option isn't a bad choice. Saying "well you shouldn't have ended up in this hole in the first place", or "it's the fault of the badly designed module, you should have spotted that early on" isn't very helpful IMHO.

I think it is more helpful to know where the source of the problem is so one can go there to fix it permanently. I don't think treating symptoms is a good long-term strategy as it usually just results in a kludgy approach. Going straight to the cause is best in my view.

 

[iserith]

This is a good statement to move the discussion forward. What if we are discussing this linearly when instead we should be discussing several dimensions?

One axis would be the amount of pre-planning and prep work a DM has for a session: Planned-Neutral-Improv
One axis would be the amount of "fudging" a GM uses in their game. Rigid-Neutral-Flexible
If you really want to get fancy you could have a third axis of: Sandbox-Neutral-Linear

I am an Improv-Flexible-Sandbox DM.

I'm whatever I need to be at the time. Except I'm Rigid when it comes to fudging.

 

[prabe]

I think it is more helpful to know where the source of the problem is so one can go there to fix it permanently. I don't think treating symptoms is a good long-term strategy as it usually just results in a kludgy approach. Going straight to the cause is best in my view.

Sure. Problem is, one usually isn't surprised by something one sees coming. If I'd seen the blockage coming I might have had something prepared, or changed what I had prepared..

 

[iserith]

Sure. Problem is, one usually isn't surprised by something one sees coming. If I'd seen the blockage coming I might have had something prepared, or changed what I had prepared..

No one's perfect. We do what we can, admit our mistakes, and try to avoid them going forward. Assembling a toolbox full of tools specifically to deal with problems I'm creating though? No way. I'm going to fix that problem at the source.