D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[FrogReaver]

I would not mind tossing Metamagic entirely out of the Sorcerer, and it's a small price to pay for all the people who actually want their Sorcerers to fulfill the class fantasy and not just handed the Wizard's discarded handouts. I don't recall it being anything that Sorcerer fans actually asked for or was wanting for the class. Don't give it to all casters though. Just toss it out entirely. No more Sorlocks.

Honestly though. Meta magic is more to theme on a sorcerer than a wizard.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

You still have to drag a spellbook around?

In the Potter/Yennifer model, yes, the process of getting an internal power that can do anything to do exactly what you want it to is enormously complicated, and you'd be well advised to work from your notes. This isn't the only way to represent internal magic, of course, nor is it adequate for every character concept in every universe. It doesn't work well for Elsa, for instance. But it is how magic works in a lot of fantasy, and there's a ring of plausibility to it: after all, great artists and musicians in the real world, whatever their natural creative gifts, tend to also be intelligent and usually keep notebooks. So it's hardly an indefensible omission for it to have worked this way pre-3E.

I'm not asking you to give up on the sorcerer; I'm asking you to give the wizard class more credit. You're fond of expounding on all the different ways there are to be a sorcerer. Don't then turn around and insist that there's only one way to be a wizard.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Honestly though. Meta magic is more to theme on a sorcerer than a wizard.

I completely disagree with this. Computer coding can be done by loners in the basement.
Advances like discovering Crispr happen, due to scientists and universities.

Given that team sorcerer is all about Wizard=Scientist, Metamagic to me is more like Crispr, than Woz working in his garage coding early Personal Computers.

 

[FrogReaver]

I completely disagree with this. Computer coding can be done by loners in the basement.
Advances like discovering Crispr happen, due to scientists and universities.

Given that team sorcerer is all about Wizard=Scientist, Metamagic to me is more like Crispr, than Woz working in his garage coding early Personal Computers.

no idea what programming has to do with it.

sorcerers are all about bending magic to their will. Nothing epitomizes that more than meta magic.

min second thought your programming analogy reveals something amazing about your position... it really is about wizards needing to have nicer, more powerful things than sorcerers because theyare the non loner universitybig wigs.... says alot

 

[tetrasodium]

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I completely disagree with this. Computer coding can be done by loners in the basement.
Advances like discovering Crispr happen, due to scientists and universities.

Given that team sorcerer is all about Wizard=Scientist, Metamagic to me is more like Crispr, than Woz working in his garage coding early Personal Computers.

no scientist=arcanist. Artificer= engineer. Wizard=programmer Plumber/mechanic/electrician=magewright
Wizard was raided & coped from so thoroughly of all it's bonus feat options/nearly every spell to build sorcerer & warlock & the remaining crafting ones were just cut from the game resulting in a wizard that can not explore those areas FR lacks.

 

[cbwjm]

no idea what programming has to do with it.

sorcerers are all about bending magic to their will. Nothing epitomizes that more than meta magic.

min second thought your programming analogy reveals something amazing about your position... it really is about wizards needing to have nicer, more powerful things than sorcerers because theyare the non loner universitybig wigs.... says alot

I could see meta magic working for either sorcerer or wizard. For the sorcerer as we currently have it, it is a natural ability to shape magic. For the wizard, it is the study of the fundamental principles of magic that allows them to alter spells.

Personally, I think that meta magic should have been available for any class that can cast spells, even an eldritch knight might learn to cast their spells in different ways than standard.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Yes, it says I believe a person devoted to the systematic study of magic, is more likely to know Metamagic, than the Sorcerer that spends all their time trying to understand themselves.

FrogReaver, your ‘insight’ into my position is incorrect. I was giving a quick example on a mobile that encapsulated the idea expressed in this thread that Sorcerers are not studious

Then again, you have made similar assertions previously on this thread, impugning someone by saying that some example is ‘revealing’.

It strikes me as a cheap carnival barker trick, and I personally do not appreciate it.

Disagree with me, no problem. Ask clarifying questions, no problem.
Tell me flat out I’m wrong...no problem.

I do not want to be harsh, and no opinion in this thread is incorrect, but as a point of order, I would personally appreciate it if you can refrain from that style, with me, in the future.

Again not wanting to be harsh, but not wanting to read amateur psychoanalysis either.

 

[FrogReaver]

I could see meta magic working for either sorcerer or wizard. For the sorcerer as we currently have it, it is a natural ability to shape magic. For the wizard, it is the study of the fundamental principles of magic that allows them to alter spells.

Personally, I think that meta magic should have been available for any class that can cast spells, even an eldritch knight might learn to cast their spells in different ways than standard.

If one believes that wizards should be able to learn essentially all magic and learn to modify all magic (at least arcane magic), then that beliefs conclusion is that those who study magic should be able to do everything that the other arcane casters can do and more. I believe that view cannot exist in a class based RPG with multiple full casters.

Consider this - Not arguing power - just theme.

Wizards already have many magical abilities that relate back to their studying magic.
1. Access to largest spell list.
2. Most known spells.
3. Ability to gain spells by finding them and copying them.
4. Ability to prepare different spells day after day.

All of these things hearken back to the concept of a learned spell caster.

Whereas everything the sorcerer gets (or doesn't get) hearkens to a caster that hasn't learned many spells but has the power to shape them in ways the learned spell casters cannot. In other words, there's still many unknowns about magic - such that wizards only have limited but broad control over it.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes, it says I believe a person devoted to the systematic study of magic, is more likely to know Metamagic, than the Sorcerer that spends all their time trying to understand themselves.

In other words, I'm spot on. You believe that study is more likely to yield greater power and ability than will come from raw uncultivated talent alone.

That worldview is the issue. It has no place in a class based RPG where there are multiple full casters and only one of them is the studious type.

And why you ask? Because that argument can be applied to any magical ability present in the game.

FrogReaver, your ‘insight’ into my position is incorrect. I was giving a quick example on a mobile that encapsulated the idea expressed in this thread that Sorcerers are not studious

And yet the more you post about it the more my analysis seems to be confirmed

Then again, you have made similar assertions previously on this thread, impugning someone by saying that some example is ‘revealing’.

No I haven't. I think you are mixing me up with someone else.

It strikes me as a cheap carnival barker trick, and I personally do not appreciate it.

Disagree with me, no problem. Ask clarifying questions, no problem.
Tell me flat out I’m wrong...no problem.

I do not want to be harsh, and no opinion in this thread is incorrect, but as a point of order, I would personally appreciate it if you can refrain from that style, with me, in the future.

Again not wanting to be harsh, but not wanting to read amateur psychoanalysis either.

Maybe, except if the analysis is right then none of this stands.

 

[tetrasodium]

Wizards already have many magical abilities that relate back to their studying magic.
1. Access to largest spell list.

You and others keep parroting that line & despite having previously admitted that there are a handful of spells that are pretty much required to be taken or face irrelevance not one person who's brought it up has been willing to admit specifically what spells among that handful of wizard specific spells you think creates the leap or what the spell list or theme of a character specializing in those wizard specific spells would look like. I'll even make it easy on you by giving you the list of what you seem to think are class defining spells

• Cantrip 100% overlap: every single cantrip in the phb on wizard is also on sorcerer list
• 1st level spells: every spell overlaps except wizard has alarm, grease, Identify, Illusory Script, Longstrider, PfG&E,
• 2nd level spells: Most spell overlaps except wizard also has access to these while sorc does not... Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Flaming Sphere, Gentle Repose, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Magic Weapon, Melfs acid arrow, Nystul's Magic Aura, Ray of enfeeblement, Rope Trick,
• 2nd level sorcerer has these spells wizard does not: Enhance ability.
• 3rd Level: Wizard has these spells not on sorcerer list... Animate dead, Bestow Curse, Feign Death, Glyph of Warding, Tiny Hut, Magic Circle, Nondetection, Remove Curse, Sending, Vampyric Touch
• 3rd Level: Sorcerer has daylight , while wizard does not
• 4th Level: Wizards also have Arcane Eye, Conjure Minor Elementals, Control Water, Black Tentacles, secret chest, Locate Creature, Faithful Hound, Private Sanctum, Resilient Sphere, Phantasmal Killer,
• 4th Level: Sorcerer has dominate beast
• 5th: Wizard has Bigsby's Hand, Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane, Dream, Gaes, Legend Lore, Mislead, Modify Memory, Passwall, Planar Binding, Telepathic Bond, Scrying, Wall of Force
• 5th: Sorcerer has insect plague

It's almost like you know it's such a hollow strawman that you fear to go there to backup your argument.