D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[FrogReaver]

You and others keep parroting that line & despite having previously admitted that there are a handful of spells that are pretty much required to be taken or face irrelevance not one person who's brought it up has been willing to admit specifically what spells among that handful of wizard specific spells you think creates the leap or what the spell list or theme of a character specializing in those wizard specific spells would look like. I'll even make it easy on you by giving you the list of what you seem to think are class defining spells

• Cantrip 100% overlap: every single cantrip in the phb on wizard is also on sorcerer list
• 1st level spells: every spell overlaps except wizard has alarm, grease, Identify, Illusory Script, Longstrider, PfG&E,
• 2nd level spells: Most spell overlaps except wizard also has access to these while sorc does not... Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Flaming Sphere, Gentle Repose, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Magic Weapon, Melfs acid arrow, Nystul's Magic Aura, Ray of enfeeblement, Rope Trick,
• 2nd level sorcerer has these spells wizard does not: Enhance ability.
• 3rd Level: Wizard has these spells not on sorcerer list... Animate dead, Bestow Curse, Feign Death, Glyph of Warding, Tiny Hut, Magic Circle, Nondetection, Remove Curse, Sending, Vampyric Touch
• 3rd Level: Sorcerer has daylight , while wizard does not
• 4th Level: Wizards also have Arcane Eye, Conjure Minor Elementals, Control Water, Black Tentacles, secret chest, Locate Creature, Faithful Hound, Private Sanctum, Resilient Sphere, Phantasmal Killer,
• 4th Level: Sorcerer has dominate beast
• 5th: Wizard has Bigsby's Hand, Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane, Dream, Gaes, Legend Lore, Mislead, Modify Memory, Passwall, Planar Binding, Telepathic Bond, Scrying, Wall of Force
• 5th: Sorcerer has insect plague

It's almost like you know it's such a hollow strawman that you fear to go there to backup your argument.

You seem to be arguing about power instead of theme. The point isn't which spell - it's that the wizard class has access to a lot of spells. That's in line with his theme as the master of magical study.

 

[tetrasodium]

You seem to be arguing about power instead of theme. The point isn't which spell - it's that the wizard class has access to a lot of spells. That's in line with his theme as the master of magical study.

You and others keep parroting that line & despite having previously admitted that there are a handful of spells that are pretty much required to be taken or face irrelevance not one person who's brought it up has been willing to admit specifically what spells among that handful of wizard specific spells you think creates the leap or what the spell list or theme of a character specializing in those wizard specific spells would look like.

You are avoiding the question I've been quite clear through this thread that the sorcerer copies or steals far too much from wizard. You on the other hand keep suggesting that wizards have some gigantic cache of meaningful "toys" as someone put it earlier yet you resort to character assassination & change the subject when pressed for details. Stop avoiding the subject and backup your poor argument or drop the nonsense.

 

[Minigiant]

I see it more like Talent vs Trained Skill. RB vs QB.

If there was a Magic ability score, the sorcerer would have an 18-20 Mag. However the sorcerer would have no skill proficiency that use Mag. Because sorcerers don't understand magic. They are just talented at it. They don't know Crestion's formula for magic rune to magic circle ratios. They just know wiggling their middlefinger and saying Wocani makes fire come out.

However a wizard has 10-12 Mag. They could have some magical talent or none at all. However they have expertise in Wizardry skill and get a +4 bonus to wizardry checks. They did Arcanagebra problems and understand the ins and outs of wizardry. That spellbook holds all the formulas, rules, and tricks they can't remember.

 

[FrogReaver]

I see it more like Talent vs Trained Skill. RB vs QB.

If there was a Magic ability score, the sorcerer would have an 18-20 Mag. However the sorcerer would have no skill proficiency that use Mag. Because sorcerers don't understand magic. They are just talented at it. They don't know Crestion's formula for magic rune to magic circle ratios. They just know wiggling theirmiddlefinger and saying Wocani make fire come out.

However a wizard has 10-12 Mag. They could have some magical talent or none at all. However they have expertise in Wizardry skill and get a +4 bonus to wizardry checks. They did Arcanagebra problem and understand the ins and outs of wizardry. That spellbook holds all the formulas, rules, and tricks they can't remember.

Sure. With the full understanding that the wizards list of rules, tricks and formulas represent less than 1% of what magic is capable of. In short, his studiousness doesn't guarantee him a privleged place when it comes to knowing any particular magical ability.

 

[FrogReaver]

You and others keep parroting that line & despite having previously admitted that there are a handful of spells that are pretty much required to be taken or face irrelevance not one person who's brought it up has been willing to admit specifically what spells among that handful of wizard specific spells you think creates the leap or what the spell list or theme of a character specializing in those wizard specific spells would look like.

You are avoiding the question I've been quite clear through this thread that the sorcerer copies or steals far too much from wizard. You on the other hand keep suggesting that wizards have some gigantic cache of meaningful "toys" as someone put it earlier yet you resort to character assassination & change the subject when pressed for details. Stop avoiding the subject and backup your poor argument or drop the nonsense.

Answering the question in a way you don't approve of is not avoiding the question.

Anyways I can repeat myself too:
Wizards already have many magical abilities that relate back to their studying magic.
1. Access to largest spell list.
2. Most known spells.
3. Ability to gain spells by finding them and copying them.
4. Ability to prepare different spells day after day.

 

[tetrasodium]

Answering the question in a way you don't approve of is not avoiding the question.

Anyways I can repeat myself too:
Wizards already have many magical abilities that relate back to their studying magic.
1. Access to largest spell list.
2. Most known spells.
3. Ability to gain spells by finding them and copying them.
4. Ability to prepare different spells day after day.

You literally repeated yourself rather than support your argument which are you referring to as something that clearly sets wizard apart. be specific. "There's an answer that supports my position, go find it yourself & make my argument for me" is not support of your position.

 

[FrogReaver]

You literally repeated yoursef rather than support your argument which are you referring to as something that clearly sets wizard apart. be specific

I was specific. I even gave you a numbered list of the specifics.

To answer this specific question of "what clearly sets the wizard apart". In terms of theme it's his studiousness toward magic.

 

[MoonSong]

You and others keep parroting that line & despite having previously admitted that there are a handful of spells that are pretty much required to be taken or face irrelevance not one person who's brought it up has been willing to admit specifically what spells among that handful of wizard specific spells you think creates the leap or what the spell list or theme of a character specializing in those wizard specific spells would look like. I'll even make it easy on you by giving you the list of what you seem to think are class defining spells

I don't really know what you want out of this. You yourself said it, without certain spells you are irrelevant. What do you want? That sorcerers can no longer do them and be completely irrelevant? (I mean a little more irrelevant, because all of these spells you menation include lots of useful spells like grease, and you omitted must haves that sorcerer doesn't get like rope trick. All of the quality of life and most of the problem solving spells are wizard only. A party with a sorcerer but no wizard just lacks utility. And all of this is irrelevant because wizards simply don't derive identity from spell selection, because it is expected they change it to suit the current and expected situations.)

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I could see meta magic working for either sorcerer or wizard. For the sorcerer as we currently have it, it is a natural ability to shape magic. For the wizard, it is the study of the fundamental principles of magic that allows them to alter spells.

I'm with this. Metamagic is a pretty malleable mechanic. If the editorial edict came down that metamagic ought to be a wizard class feature, I could justify it as engineer-like tinkering. If the editorial edict came down that it ought to be a sorcerer class feature, I could justify it as artist-like improvisation.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm with this. Metamagic is a pretty malleable mechanic. If the editorial edict came down that metamagic ought to be a wizard class feature, I could justify it as engineer-like tinkering. If the editorial edict came down that it ought to be a sorcerer class feature, I could justify it as artist-like improvisation.

I can agree with that. The problem with that from a 5e perspective is that metamagic is really the only feature that sorcerers get in their base class that supports their class theme.