D&D 5E Assassinate and Greater Invisibility

[HarbingerX]

Okay, I get the beat passive perception thingy, but unless I am blind I don't see it saying "because its only surprised until after its first turn."

It does say, "Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."

I would argue that if you are invisible, and especially if you are hidden, invisible, mind blanked, silenced, floating on Winged Boots, that you are a threat not noticed and subjected to a surprise regardless of what round it is.

Assassinate only works while the target hasn't taken an action yet in combat. After that, the target is assumed to be combat-ready and scanning for threats. So this is why assassinate doesn't work later in the combat - even though they may not know where the specific threat may come from, they know threats are there.

 

[DemonSlayer]

What you do is take out the first target, go unnoticed and have combat end, and then surprise the next target by starting combat again.

Once combat starts and enemies are aware it started, they can no longer be assassinated because there is no surprise until combat ends.

Surprise would not work as a condition because it only happens in the first round of combat. It is not a condition that can happen outside of that one spot.

 

[DM-Rocco]

''If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.''

Surprised is like a special condition, if you will. I would have preferred if WotC put it in the condition list for easier reference.

I would have preferred if WOTC would have employed English majors to go over everything and literally say, "are you an idiot, because only an idiot would word it this way. You need to be clear, let's word it like this instead.."

 

[DM-Rocco]

Let me put it in modern terms, as it's an analogy I'm most familiar with. When I was in the military and someone took a pot shot at my helicopter, the first time it was a surprise. But if they kept shooting, even though I didn't see them or couldn't detect them, I was aware I was being shot at, and took appropriate measures.

I think you're conflating not noticing with not seeing. You'll notice once you're under attack that you're being attacked.

Okay, let's go with that. Your copper is under fire. You can't see where it is from. You dip low behind a valley to avoid where you think the fire is coming from. Unfortunately for you, whether it is the same fireteam or another, because you didn't know where it was coming from you managed to place yourself closer to your unseen enemy and now they fire a rocket launcher at point plant range and blow you up because even though you knew there were enemies out there, you were surprised that they weren't were you thought they were.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Assassinate only works while the target hasn't taken an action yet in combat. After that, the target is assumed to be combat-ready and scanning for threats. So this is why assassinate doesn't work later in the combat - even though they may not know where the specific threat may come from, they know threats are there.

Actually, it goes on to say, "In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit."

So it doesn't have to be a creature at the beginning of combat. They just have to be surprised.

 

[NotAYakk]

You can homebrew it any way you want. We are just describing the rules in the book.

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All rogues have Hide as a bonus action at 2nd level.

Hiding in combat is a way to get advantage, reposition, flee or a myriad of other things. "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly". Once hidden, you have advantage on your attacks on them, they don't know what square you are in (for certain), and they have disadvantage on attacks on you (if they do manage to guess what square you are in).

Invisible is similar to hiding, except they by default know what square you are in. Hiding while invisible is easy - just take the hidden action - as the "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly" is an easy condition to handle. However, non-rogues still have to take an action after being invisible to become hidden, by RAW, and rogues (after level 2) have to take a bonus action.

Hiding in combat does not trigger the assassin "auto crit" feature. By the rules, you can only get surprise at the start of a combat.

It is mildly ambiguous when a creature being "surprised" ends; it is reasonable to make it "at the end of the first round of combat" or "once you finish your first turn of combat". As others have noted, if they had made "surprised" a condition, this would be much clearer.

If it was a condition, I'd write it like:

Surprised: Before combat starts some creatures are unaware hostiles are present. The DM determines if this has occurred. When surprised, you cannot take actions nor reactions; if you where walking right before combat begins, you may continue to walk in that direction on your turn. If you take your turn and there is evidence of hostile creatures (an ally takes damage, or you can see them, etc), surprise ends at the end of your turn.

Surprise: At the start of combat sometimes one side or the other can be Surprised. The DM determines if this is possible. Usually this will only occur if one side or the other is being stealthy; make a Dexterity(Stealth) check, and any creature on the opposing side whose passive Wisdom(perception) is defeated by everyone starts combat Surprised. Sudden betrayal can also cause someone to be surprised; make a Charisma(Deception)

However, the above allows someone to cheese two surprise attacks out; every sneaky person who wins initiative readies their action, then they all trigger after the surprised folk are oblivious, then they go again next turn.

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Actually, it goes on to say, "In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit."

So it doesn't have to be a creature at the beginning of combat. They just have to be surprised.

The only way to become surprised is at the beginning of combat. There are rules that describe how a creature is surprised.

You can homebrew your own surprise rules if you want. But the rules for surprise have been quoted in this thread.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

So it doesn't have to be a creature at the beginning of combat. They just have to be surprised.

But there's no way to surprise a creature once combat as started, because your are already noticed. You can move and hide to be hidden from them, but you cant surprised them again.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Okay, let's go with that. Your copper is under fire. You can't see where it is from. You dip low behind a valley to avoid where you think the fire is coming from. Unfortunately for you, whether it is the same fireteam or another, because you didn't know where it was coming from you managed to place yourself closer to your unseen enemy and now they fire a rocket launcher at point plant range and blow you up because even though you knew there were enemies out there, you were surprised that they weren't were you thought they were.

A target aware they are in combat is exponentially harder to hit than one that is not aware they in combat, regardless if they see the opponent or not.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Another way to look at this is to compare to other 3rd level subclass abilities. One that made it possible to consistently get automatic crits throughout a fight would be waaaaaay more powerful than any other 3rd level ability.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Assassinate only works while the target hasn't taken an action yet in combat. After that, the target is assumed to be combat-ready and scanning for threats. So this is why assassinate doesn't work later in the combat - even though they may not know where the specific threat may come from, they know threats are there.

This is the sort of thing that bugs me. The assassin should absolutely be able to take out 6 people in a row, by darting in and out of sight like a homicidal Batman.

I’d allow assassinate against any target from whom you are hidden.