D&D 5E Is 5e the Least-Challenging Edition of D&D?

[tetrasodium]

It's a challenge avoiding it or getting your saves up.

Failing that raise dead.

You don't want to over do it and it sucked in 3E due to the way saves scaled.

Technically true, the larger problem is the lack of meaningful gradation between "Yea guys we can totally faceroll through this", "yeaaa... that was um.. oops...an inappropriate challenge sorry", and "save or die" unless the gm starts making changes...

 

[Zardnaar]

Technically true, the larger problem is the lack of meaningful gradation between "Yea guys we can totally faceroll through this", "yeaaa... that was um.. oops...an inappropriate challenge sorry", and "save or die" unless the gm starts making changes...

In hindsight I kind of prefer it to grinding through go a'la 5E.

By overdoing it I mean using it all the time or using it gotcha style.

Hit the OC wizard the other night with finger if death. Flunked the save and didn't even get KOed. Even if he would have healing word isn't to far away.

They're level 8 now, designed a stinker if a lair to get through CR 17 Dragon, traps, terrain, spells etc.

Just kinda sucks the fun out of the game as DM. There's just not much you can do to challenge them and starting to hate Xanathars (healing spirit, absorb elements etc).

 

[Stoutstien]

In hindsight I kind of prefer it to grinding through go a'la 5E.

By overdoing it I mean using it all the time or using it gotcha style.

Hit the OC wizard the other night with finger if death. Flunked the save and didn't even get KOed. Even if he would have healing word isn't to far away.

They're level 8 now, designed a stinker if a lair to get through CR 17 Dragon, traps, terrain, spells etc.

Just kinda sucks the fun out of the game as DM. There's just not much you can do to challenge them and starting to hate Xanathars (healing spirit, absorb elements etc).

The PC's design strength is also their biggest weakness. They are extraordinary good at dealing and taking large amounts of spike/Nova damage. Not so great at dealing with substantial incoming damage or effects. 4 goblins knowingly fighting
A superior force, such as the party, is more challenging than a single ogre trying to win by trying to race them to zero.

I know most people see the party as the underdogs but realistically the NPCs are facing a well trained death squad and if able, plan accordingly.

 

[Chaosmancer]

In hindsight I kind of prefer it to grinding through go a'la 5E.

By overdoing it I mean using it all the time or using it gotcha style.

Hit the OC wizard the other night with finger if death. Flunked the save and didn't even get KOed. Even if he would have healing word isn't to far away.

They're level 8 now, designed a stinker if a lair to get through CR 17 Dragon, traps, terrain, spells etc.

Just kinda sucks the fun out of the game as DM. There's just not much you can do to challenge them and starting to hate Xanathars (healing spirit, absorb elements etc).

And if thy had dropped and no one had used healing word, then the PC is a zombie and potentially permanently dead. Heck, a DM might rule healing word doesn't work, since they are supposed to become a zombie by the start of the enemies next turn.


I don't know what to tell you, as a DM I've never really felt this. Sure, I have had fights that the players couldn't be challenged on, but I always knew I could pull it off, and even if I knew the players would be fine, they rarely did, and their panicked flailing often made them make silly mistakes that lead to them ending up worse off than they otherwise would.

Sure, players can punch way above their weight class, but that only means you have to adjust expectations.

The HP of the monsters in the book is only the average, maybe these monsters are tougher.
The monsters in the book usually have the lowest quality equipment, let them upgrade, even something as simple as giving a monster that usually uses claws a club helps increase their threat level.

I've always found more I could do to make the enemies a threat, without breaking verisimilitude or going overboard. And, if you've got highly tactical players that keep their cool and never make a misstep, then yeah, you might need to crank things up to keep the challenge on.

 

[Garthanos]

In 4E I removed several save or suck options from both monsters and PCs.

You have me curious - ? Sleep spell

 

[tetrasodium]

I don't know what to tell you, as a DM I've never really felt this. Sure, I have had fights that the players couldn't be challenged on, but I always knew I could pull it off, and even if I knew the players would be fine, they rarely did, and their panicked flailing often made them make silly mistakes that lead to them ending up worse off than they otherwise would.

it never starts out that way with a group, but I've seen it both as a GM & as a player in multiple groups. Over time things start to build up & toto slowly pulls back the curtain. One by one things click in the group dynamic as everyone starts to realize combat is either "wait... did you say beholder?" and this. Somebody in the group might try coordinating the group to be strategic in combat, but eventually everyone realizes they are adam west & it doesn't matter if that person is good at it or if anyone in the group bothers to listen instead of spinning the pokestop on the flgs every 5 minutes during the fight. IME it starts & finishes somewhere around level 8-12 give or take

 

[Chaosmancer]

it never starts out that way with a group, but I've seen it both as a GM & as a player in multiple groups. Over time things start to build up & toto slowly pulls back the curtain. One by one things click in the group dynamic as everyone starts to realize combat is either "wait... did you say beholder?" and this. Somebody in the group might try coordinating the group to be strategic in combat, but eventually everyone realizes they are adam west & it doesn't matter if that person is good at it or if anyone in the group bothers to listen instead of spinning the pokestop on the flgs every 5 minutes during the fight. IME it starts & finishes somewhere around level 8-12 give or take

IME that doesn't always happen.

I ran a group up to... I don't remember if we hit 20 or not, but we at least hit 15th. I finangled some stuff so they had a even a chance to make it to the "final boss" (they had a bone to pick with a Far Realms entity, and the only portal they could find was in the middle of a well established Mind Flayer colony. If I had run that fight as legitimate, they would have never made it to the portal. But, it was wrapping up a two year campaign, and the colony wasn't what they were interested in ending the campaign doing, which is what would have happened do to the time constraints) and they ended up fighting a really climatic final battle.

In fact, in every game I've run I have never really had them in a situation where they just phoned in winning. Sure, I get distracted people and those who aren't that great, but once I tell them "Okay, and here are the enemies" it is usually panic time. And not just enemies like Beholders, I've gotten that reaction from NPC bosses, a squad of fey knights, heck, a pile of worms once got that reaction (that was an RP encounter, but still, it was harsh for the characters to deal with all the mental manipulation being thrown their way)

So, there must be something I'm doing or something they are lacking, because this idea that they can just sit back and win without trying doesn't seem to hold true to my experience.

 

[Argyle King]

No

In general, it tends toward being easy, but I would say that 4E was the easiest.

With my usual D&D group, if the monsters in 4E managed to actually act on their turn without being stunned (or worse), it was surprising.

 

[slobster]

One by one things click in the group dynamic as everyone starts to realize combat is either "wait... did you say beholder?" and this.

Not gonna lie, that looks like an awesome encounter. Something like my friends and I would have on the last third of the night, with most of the beers finished off. I kind of want to play in that campaign.

 

[Undrave]

It's a challenge avoiding it or getting your saves up.

Failing that raise dead.

You don't want to over do it and it sucked in 3E due to the way saves scaled.

By 'Getting you saves up', you mean having good stats? That's not a challenge: you either have the stats or you don't. How are you avoiding it because you never know when its coming. If DnD had a system where you could anticipate enemy action better (like the Beholder always does X the turn before he uses Y) then it would be the sort of challenge you get in a platform game... but you usally have to get hit once to see the pattern so it doesn't work with insta-death.

If you mean avoiding the fight then it all boils down to a single dice roll again.