Is the DM the most important person at the table

[Imaro]

WoD was an early attempt at a "Nar" game as opposed to D&D's "trad" game play. Ultimately, the GM / players roles ended up similar with the GM being expected to simply use enough force to force play into a strong narrative. The tools to provide a stronger natural 'Nar' experience hadn't been invented yet.

Yeah that was my point it actually played very similar to D&D... irregardless of what the hype at the time claimed.

 

[Ovinomancer]

WoD was an early attempt at a "Nar" game as opposed to D&D's "trad" game play. Ultimately, the GM / players roles ended up similar with the GM being expected to simply use enough force to force play into a strong narrative. The tools to provide a stronger natural 'Nar' experience hadn't been invented yet.

I disagree with about half of this. WoD was an attempt to feature character focused play. It didn't provide a robust toolkit to do so, so people familiar with GM directed play just kept playing it that way, because you could. And, there are absolutely better toolkits for the goal of WoD out there. Burning Wheel gets pretty darned close to the character-focused promise of WoD. As does Dogs in the Vineyard. The Powered by the Apocalypse games also do a much better job of it.

Now, if you prefer scripted play, then sure, then GM Force is a requirement and there's no better toolbox than Force to achieve GM scripted play.

 

[Ovinomancer]

@GameOrgre came out and stated where he spent his time. Dresden Files style shared worldbuilding isn't a fit. Feel free to read the thread and catch up so I don't need to summarize.

Oh, I'm caught up. I addressed your statement about DF shared worldbuilding above -- perhaps you missed it and would like to review? Or, is this another case where you're going to use GameOgre as a rhetorical shield?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Yeah that was my point it actually played very similar to D&D... irregardless of what the hype at the time claimed.

It's... not. Prep for WoD isn't nearly at the level of prep for D&D because it's focus isn't the combat minigame but instead character interactions. That it's as vulnerable to GM Force as D&D, and often played as the GM directing the players in the GM's play isn't really germane to the context of this thread, which is about GM importance (only germane in the sense that such importance is based entirely on assumptions, not requirements) and difficulty of being a GM. I saw enough bad WoD games to know that being a WoD GM certainly wasn't hard, so long as you'd properly cowed your players into following your story. Also required zero prep to do so.

 

[Nagol]

Oh, I'm caught up. I addressed your statement about DF shared worldbuilding above -- perhaps you missed it and would like to review? Or, is this another case where you're going to use GameOgre as a rhetorical shield?

Nah, I'll just ignore you arguments, thanks.
You should have ignored the impulse to post this. EVERYONE: disagreeing without being disagreeable is the better path. Ignoring someone is fine; announcing you’re doing so just adds fuel to the fire.

 

[Imaro]

It's... not. Prep for WoD isn't nearly at the level of prep for D&D because it's focus isn't the combat minigame but instead character interactions. That it's as vulnerable to GM Force as D&D, and often played as the GM directing the players in the GM's play isn't really germane to the context of this thread, which is about GM importance (only germane in the sense that such importance is based entirely on assumptions, not requirements) and difficulty of being a GM. I saw enough bad WoD games to know that being a WoD GM certainly wasn't hard, so long as you'd properly cowed your players into following your story. Also required zero prep to do so.

Well I saw plenty of combat in plenty of WoD games... I mean how many Vampire Disciplines and Mage rotes were combat oriented? And to claim Werewolf the Apocalypse wasn't about combat... uhm ok sure I guess there were some games like that. I also remember stating up an NPC was the same as creating a character which wasn't exactly a quick process... I'll just chalk it up to us having different experiences.

 

[Nagol]

Well I saw plenty of combat in plenty of WoD games... I mean how many Vampire Disciplines and Mage rotes were combat oriented? And to claim Werewolf the Apocalypse wasn't about combat... uhm ok sure I guess there were some games like that. I'll just chalk it up to different experiences

The primary reason prep was light IME is twofold: treasure wasn't a priority and so placement of same was trivial. Dungeons weren't really a thing so mapping was also much lighter. At worst, you tended to get a couple of "special" locales.

Both of those tend to substantially reduce prep compared to traditional D&D. It was much closer to superheroic CHAMPIONS or V&V in terms of prep.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Nah, I'll just ignore you arguments, thanks.

Sounds good.

 

[Imaro]

The primary reason prep was light IME is twofold: treasure wasn't a priority and so placement of same was trivial. Dungeons weren't really a thing so mapping was also much lighter. At worst, you tended to get a couple of "special" locales.

Both of those tend to substantially reduce prep compared to traditional D&D. It was much closer to superheroic CHAMPIONS or V&V in terms of prep.

You could be right, I'll be honest unlike the combat statement I actual don't have any experiences to contradict what you are saying here and it does seem plausible.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Well I saw plenty of combat in plenty of WoD games... I mean how many Vampire Disciplines and Mage rotes were combat oriented? And to claim Werewolf the Apocalypse wasn't about combat... uhm ok sure I guess there were some games like that. I also remember stating up an NPC was the same as creating a character which wasn't exactly a quick process... I'll just chalk it up to us having different experiences.

Which actually bolsters my argument!