D&D 5E Reasonable Movement and Athletic Feats?

[mrpopstar]

LOL I don't seem to appreciate being challenged? Ahem Cough, cough

You're being snarky.

If am guilty of not liking my "fixed mindset" challenged, you seem oblivious to the fact yours has been as well and you are not acknowledging the points despite your claims.

This isn't about being challenged, it is about reading the description of what Perception is comprised of and understanding that those proficient in Perception will be better than those who aren't at judging a distance. I've outlined it for you multiple times and you still are either unwilling or unable to understand the significance.

There is no need to push my thinking because your hypothetical has no merit in 5E. Elves and humans don't, as a race, have the same visual acuity because, in 5E, elves do have Keen Senses, and not every human will have proficiency in Perception. So, please stop proposing meaningless hypotheticals and address how the description of the "keenness of your senses" as part of Perception has nothing to do with visual acuity.

Wisdom is not a physical ability score, yet you insist that proficiency in the Perception skill demonstrates a focus on physical sight. Is it your stance that a character with 20/20 vision can improve their vision to 20/15 if they gain proficiency in the Perception skill? Can you provide evidence outside of the skill's description to substantiate your claim?

I'm not being contentious, or even onerous in my asking. Help me see it the way you see it beyond advancing a single phrase.

Actually, the very fact you felt compelled to resort to such a hypothetical demonstrates you do understand how perception is tied to visual acuity, but are simply unwilling to acknowledge it. You are trying to find a way to force your point of view through the hypothetical, even though your understanding is inaccurate given the description of Perception in the DMG. As I have said before, if you want to play that way more power to you--no one is trying to stop you.

I expressed why it would be Intelligence (Perception) to estimate a distance, and you expressed why you disagree despite the evidence I've presented. Now I know you understand but just don't want to challenge your thinking, I am done trying to show you. You know, but won't admit it.

Please do not tell me what I know or what I feel.

Also, I asked you to push your thinking and offered food for thought. That's not a desperate or dirty trick.

Actually, if you had responded, "Sure, I see your point. Perception is actually tied to senses given that keenness of your senses phrase and being better at it could make it easier to judge a distance, but I just feel it should be straight Intelligence alone," my response would have been: "That's cool, play it however you feel is best for your table" and left it at that.

Guess I'll just leave it as it is instead.

By "push your thinking" I mean "ask questions that challenge your own stance." It feels like you're in combat with me when I've simply questioned the appropriateness of involving Perception in the Intelligence check used to measure one's ability to estimate a gap. Yikes!

 

[mrpopstar]

Using a game of Where's Waldo? as an explanatory example of Wisdom (Perception) checks in action is also one of my finer inspirations.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Wouldn’t judging a distance at a glance be a normal wisdom perception check, while examining and calculating the distance would be investigation? Seems like Int (Perception) only works if you get pedantic and try to make it work, to me.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Wouldn’t judging a distance at a glance be a normal wisdom perception check, while examining and calculating the distance would be investigation? Seems like Int (Perception) only works if you get pedantic and try to make it work, to me.

Sounds like an ideal place for an Intelligence (Athletics) check to me.
Spotting the chasm isn't the issue, its estimating your chances. And its less about the exact distance in feet, and more about the distance and conditions compared to your actual jumping capability.
So: Intelligence (Athletics). Done. You can stop arguing about it now.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sounds like an ideal place for an Intelligence (Athletics) check to me.
Spotting the chasm isn't the issue, its estimating your chances. And its less about the exact distance in feet, and more about the distance and conditions compared to your actual jumping capability.
So: Intelligence (Athletics). Done. You can stop arguing about it now.

lol that could work, too. I'd allow any of the above, tbh. I let the players drive what skills and ability scores they are using, as long as it makes sense in terms of matching description of the action and the mechanical resolution.

 

[mrpopstar]

Wouldn’t judging a distance at a glance be a normal wisdom perception check, while examining and calculating the distance would be investigation? Seems like Int (Perception) only works if you get pedantic and try to make it work, to me.

The game attributes objective measure to Intelligence, and subjective measure to Wisdom. -- And I agree that Intelligence (Perception) being an exercise in semantics. Semantics are an endless merry-go-round for those who insist. Let us not insist.

Sounds like an ideal place for an Intelligence (Athletics) check to me.
Spotting the chasm isn't the issue, its estimating your chances. And its less about the exact distance in feet, and more about the distance and conditions compared to your actual jumping capability.
So: Intelligence (Athletics). Done. You can stop arguing about it now.

This aha moment brought to you by pushed thinking, folks. Novel solutions for the win!

 

[mrpopstar]

On the eyes of elves and the Perception skill...

On a clear day, elves and humans can see the same distance.
In clear water, elves and humans can see the same distance.
In bright light, elves and humans can see the same distance.

In lightly obscured areas, elves can see better than humans.
This is where the game models the greater physical capability of elven eyes.

The keen senses described by the Perception skill models the ability to interpret what is seen.
Elves and humans can both clearly see a statue 10 ft. away.
Elves are more aware and better able to sense the statue poses a threat.
They take notice where humans otherwise do not, generally speaking.

The best advice I can give is to drill that Wisdom is subjective and Intelligence is objective. I find that approach helps to guide my rulings and keep me consistent.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The game attributes objective measure to Intelligence, and subjective measure to Wisdom. -- And I agree that Intelligence (Perception) being an exercise in semantics. Semantics are an endless merry-go-round for those who insist. Let us not insist.

Quote the game text that does that, please.

 

[mrpopstar]

Quote the game text that does that, please.

Consider the text in whole. Look everywhere to see where Wisdom and Intelligence apply. The collective terms are an implication of Wisdom representing the soft things unseen and Intelligence being the hard things observed.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Consider the text in whole. Look everywhere to see where Wisdom and Intelligence apply. The collective terms are an implication of Wisdom representing the soft things unseen and Intelligence being the hard things observed.

Not really.
Perception literally explicitly governs your ability to spot things. Physical things.