Is the DM the most important person at the table

[Nagol]

Hah! I knew stableboy would be in there.

You mean the stableboy that has been abused by the prince a number of times for being slow at getting the prince's horse ready, even though the stableboy was working as quickly as could be expected? The stableboy saved up his money for the last 3 years and managed to acquire a rare poison from a shady person in the dregs of town. While visiting his girlfriend in the kitchens, he put the poison into the food into the plate a visiting envoy from the Kingdom of Weareannoying whom the prince hates, but had to entertain for dinner.

I could also come up with reasons for the other three to be the murderer, even the paladin(though he would probably end up falling from grace).

So where's the frame? How does the stableboy actually present evidence the prince did it? You managed kind of plausible murder if the players pay no attention, but no frame.

 

[Maxperson]

So where's the frame? How does the stableboy actually present evidence the prince did it? You managed kind of plausible murder if the players pay no attention, but no frame.

The frame is in killing the envoy hated by the prince during a dinner with the prince. The prince had both motive and opportunity. Blame is sure to be placed on him by the envoy's country, even if not someone in the palace.

 

[Ovinomancer]

The big problem with just asking for any form of construction without context is there is an extremely good chance nothing you get will fit to purpose.

If you really need a church, but ask for 4 random buildings, the 2 houses, outdoor shed, and lord's manor you receive are of no use.

So you need to provide context. But, the more context you provide, the fewer surprises can be expected.

Well, duh? If you've already written a story, asking other writers for characters to put in it is gonna be weird.

If, instead, you ask for the characters and then craft a story using those characters, you get better results.

I mean, the ask was for things that help take some of tge liad off, right? If you're starting from 'I've already done the work' then there's nothing to be done to lighten it, yeah -- you've already done it. If you start there, and then ask for input, you've git it out of order.

 

[Nagol]

The frame is in killing the envoy hated by the prince during a dinner with the prince. The prince had both motive and opportunity. Blame is sure to be placed on him by the envoy's country, even if not someone in the palace.

Motive
The prince hates the man. OK. Is there an actual motive for murder? No. State dinners often have actors that hate one another.

Opportunity?
Did the prince have access to the food? No. Servants did.

Means?
Can anyone tie the prince to acquiring said poison? No.
Can the poison be found on the prince? No.

I repeat, where in the scenario is the frame? I see a bystander and/or possible target if the plates go accidently switched. Bring in the investigators and clean house by removing any dubious kitchen and wait staff. There is no serious suspicion on the prince.

 

[Nagol]

Well, duh? If you've already written a story, asking other writers for characters to put in it is gonna be weird.

If, instead, you ask for the characters and then craft a story using those characters, you get better results.

I mean, the ask was for things that help take some of tge liad off, right? If you're starting from 'I've already done the work' then there's nothing to be done to lighten it, yeah -- you've already done it. If you start there, and then ask for input, you've git it out of order.

You don't even need a specific story (unless your claim is every reasonable frame is the same story). Asking for vague things nets a small number of specific responses. The chance at least one (and preferentially multiple) submissions can be trivially modified to fit any particular circumstance is low.

The more context you provide, the less surpise the scenario can hold.

Asking for a random group of submissions may provide inspiration should you find it lacking, but that really doesn't reduce work.

 

[prabe]

Well, duh? If you've already written a story, asking other writers for characters to put in it is gonna be weird.

If, instead, you ask for the characters and then craft a story using those characters, you get better results.

I mean, the ask was for things that help take some of tge liad off, right? If you're starting from 'I've already done the work' then there's nothing to be done to lighten it, yeah -- you've already done it. If you start there, and then ask for input, you've git it out of order.

And if you don't have at least a little context, you don't know what content you need. Or want. Or whatever.

Insisting that asking the players for content will always ease the DM's workload seems like a fallacy to me, kinda like insisting that running published adventures will. If I need, say, a cabal of diabolists, it's easier and quicker for me to think for fifteen minutes and come up with 6, plus the leader (and where he's from and why he's doing this) than it is to get in touch with the players, wait for answers, edit the answers, throw out the edited answers (mostly) and use my own ideas anyway. Especially if finding out that there's a cabal is going to be the point (or part of the point) of the adventure.

 

[Maxperson]

Motive
The prince hates the man. OK. Is there an actual motive for murder? No. State dinners often have actors that hate one another.

Hate is always a motive for murder. Just because the vast majority of people who hate don't murder, doesn't remove it as a motive.

Opportunity?
Did the prince have access to the food? No. Servants did.

Sure he did. The prince is well known for visiting the kitchens to grab snacks, and he had access during the dinner. The envoy isn't going to be looking and/or a bit of sleight of hand is all it takes. Even if he used a servant, he was still the one that orchestrated and is responsible for the murder.

Means?
Can anyone tie the prince to acquiring said poison? No.

Irrelevant. That's what the investigation by the PCs may or may not show.

Can the poison be found on the prince? No.

Also irrelevant. The prince could have destroyed it by the time the poison started working and killed the envoy. The investigation will have to happen to show these things.

 

[prabe]

Motive
The prince hates the man. OK. Is there an actual motive for murder? No. State dinners often have actors that hate one another.

Opportunity?
Did the prince have access to the food? No. Servants did.

Means?
Can anyone tie the prince to acquiring said poison? No.
Can the poison be found on the prince? No.

I repeat, where in the scenario is the frame? I see a bystander and/or possible target if the plates go accidently switched. Bring in the investigators and clean house by removing any dubious kitchen and wait staff. There is no serious suspicion on the prince.

I'm not trying to get into a crossfire here, but are you and @Maxperson using "frame" the same way here? It seems as though you aren't, and that's maybe not helping communication. Seems as though @Nagol is using it in the same sense as "framing a story" while @Maxperson is using it in the same sense as "framing someone for murder."

If I'm wrong, feel free to ignore me and return to your argument, already in progress.

 

[Ovinomancer]

And if you don't have at least a little context, you don't know what content you need. Or want. Or whatever.

I'm not sure we're talking about tge same thing. It seems like you're still requiring a pre-witten plotline. I'm saying that, if you do, then expecting naive insertion of material, regardless of source, will of course be odd. If, instead, you ask for the material and then start building plot, it's not odd.

If, instead, you mean that material should be somewhat constrained by genre and established fiction but not pre-written plot, then sure, we agree

Insisting that asking the players for content will always ease the DM's workload seems like a fallacy to me, kinda like insisting that running published adventures will.

Of course that's a fallacy, 100% agree. I also don't think anyone's saying that. I might be wrong, there's at least one person in the thread whose posts I can't see. No one I do see has said that.

If I need, say, a cabal of diabolists, it's easier and quicker for me to think for fifteen minutes and come up with 6, plus the leader (and where he's from and why he's doing this) than it is to get in touch with the players, wait for answers, edit the answers, throw out the edited answers (mostly) and use my own ideas anyway. Especially if finding out that there's a cabal is going to be the point (or part of the point) of the adventure.

Yes, if you've decided on a plot then you've already made decisions about the game that means you've accepted doing more work. That's been said a number of times. You don't have to choose this, though. You could ask your player for some NPCs and then riff off what you get to build plot featuring thise NPCs. Or, something else.

Tools are useful if you use them in ways they're meant to work. If you try to use them in other ways, the results can be frustrating. Some tools have been suggested along with how to use them. Most of this conversation seems to be complaining that the tools don't work other ways. Like complaining a screwdriver is a poor tool for driving nails. I agree, it is. I'm talking about using screws, though.

 

[prabe]

I'm not sure we're talking about tge same thing. It seems like you're still requiring a pre-witten plotline. I'm saying that, if you do, then expecting naive insertion of material, regardless of source, will of course be odd. If, instead, you ask for the material and then start building plot, it's not odd.

If, instead, you mean that material should be somewhat constrained by genre and established fiction but not pre-written plot, then sure, we agree

You talk about a pre-written plotline, and that sounds to me as though I know (or think I know) what will happen. I'm more trying to work out what has happened, what is happening before the PCs insert themselves; the only "will happen" stuff I bother with is stuff that will happen in the absence of interference. I don't set out to prep more than the next session when I sit down to prep; as an example, I have a session tomorrow evening that I'm hoping to get at least some prep done today, and I'm not planning to prep anything for the session after that (though stuff might carry over, of course).

Yes, if you've decided on a plot then you've already made decisions about the game that means you've accepted doing more work. That's been said a number of times. You don't have to choose this, though. You could ask your player for some NPCs and then riff off what you get to build plot featuring thise NPCs. Or, something else.

What has been said a number of times in response to this is that for some of us, getting the content from the players and integrating it with the content in our heads is more work than generating it ourselves. It could be about the players (not all players are good at generating content this way), it could be that the DM literally finds generating content easier than integrating someone else's, it could be both of those, it could be something else. And none of those needs to be bad, exactly, or anyone's fault.

Tools are useful if you use them in ways they're meant to work. If you try to use them in other ways, the results can be frustrating. Some tools have been suggested along with how to use them. Most of this conversation seems to be complaining that the tools don't work other ways. Like complaining a screwdriver is a poor tool for driving nails. I agree, it is. I'm talking about using screws, though.

Sure. It just feels sometimes as though we're being told we should have used screws from the start, so we could now use this nice screwdriver.