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D&D 4E Are powers samey?

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
The reason you think 5e classes are more different is because they present medium sized differences covered in neon paint. 4e presents big differences and shows you the structure rather than covering it up. And in almost every case where 5e has a difference that doesn't involve spells it was in 4e.

1. It's not presentation for me. Though I can understand that being the issue for some.
2. I literally cannot comprehend how anyone could say that 4e differences are huge in comparison to 5e's. It just doesn't compute.
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
A move and a standard does not have this reputation. (Nobody is out there complaining that 3X is saddled with the unfair standard/move canard or meme)

Hi, I'n Nobody.

Standard/Move/Full was a mess and I believe part of the reason 4e had power was to change "Full Action" equivalent action to "Standard" ones

Part of the reason 4e looked samey was instead of "5 foot step then 3 attacks to deal damage/trip/disarm/push/etc" you got "[W]+Str+push X". 4E more or less repackaged 3E's attacks, special attacks, and feats into the same system as spells.
 

BryonD

Hero
Hi, I'n Nobody.

Standard/Move/Full was a mess and I believe part of the reason 4e had power was to change "Full Action" equivalent action to "Standard" ones

Part of the reason 4e looked samey was instead of "5 foot step then 3 attacks to deal damage/trip/disarm/push/etc" you got "[W]+Str+push X". 4E more or less repackaged 3E's attacks, special attacks, and feats into the same system as spells.
Hi Nobody.
Two replies.
I never said you didn't like 3X. There are a lot of people who don't like 3X.
Please point me to the established memes where 3X is called samey because of move standard.
"Somebody out there said this" and "this is an annoying persistent meme" are not equivalent.

Frankly, the fact that the debate is already moving into this "hey look over there at this meaningless tangent, just whatever you do don't stay on topic" line is telling.

Any and all dislikes of 3X are open to being valid for various individuals.
Can you agree that this is true? Can you also agree that this applies to 4E?
Is it ok for someone else to truly find 4E samey?
 


Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
Something people tend to overlook in this argument is the scope of play in 4th Edition, which assumes characters will go all the way to level 30. Most other editions capped at 20, introducing higher level play as optional rules and variants. More levels means more powers and abilities to fill out those slots with increasing power, scale, and granularity.

Now throw in an expanding list of classes being introduced every year for a new PHB, as originally intended, each with 30 levels worth of unique powers that defined what the class (with 2 subclasses to begin with) does apart from everyone else. And don't forget the other sourcebooks for Martial, Arcane, etc. that expands those subclass choices for each class.

Also, let's not forget heroic themes, paragon paths, and epic destinies, which layered even more powers on top of everything else. And all this comes before Essentials was introduced to rehash old ideas into something different while still trying to be backwards compatible with previous designs and content.

The variation for mechanical effects vs the sheer number of unique powers as intended by design for this edition was part of its own flaw of being short-sighted. A different approach, like reusing similar powers for a class by power source with different options or feats defined by class or race, might have been more efficient and interesting. Or even just scaling back to 20 levels, or even 10, would have allowed a more complete game in a single book with expansions adding new tiers and higher-levels of play for those who can invest in a longer running campaign with more complex combats and magic.

Despite the flaws, I think 4e accomplished a lot just showing the potential that D&D can be something different and still give you the same core experience of every other incarnation of the game. If you kick down the door, kill the monsters, and level up your characters, it's still D&D. ;)
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Hi Nobody.
Two replies.
I never said you didn't like 3X. There are a lot of people who don't like 3X.
Please point me to the established memes where 3X is called samey because of move standard.
"Somebody out there said this" and "this is an annoying persistent meme" are not equivalent.

Frankly, the fact that the debate is already moving into this "hey look over there at this meaningless tangent, just whatever you do don't stay on topic" line is telling.

Any and all dislikes of 3X are open to being valid for various individuals.
Can you agree that this is true? Can you also agree that this applies to 4E?
Is it ok for someone else to truly find 4E samey?


I'd argue that meme culture was not as advanced and viral back in 3E days so we never got past Angel Summoners and BMX Bandit.

My point is and always was that
  • 4e powers are samey
  • 3e spells are samey
  • 3e special attacks are samey
  • 2e spells are samey
  • 5e spells are samey
  • 5e maneuvers are samey
  • 5e ki powers are samey
  • 5e Invocations are samey
They are all samey, so of course someone would find them samey. So there is no point other than perspective.
 

BryonD

Hero
Despite the flaws, I think 4e accomplished a lot just showing the potential that D&D can be something different and still give you the same core experience of every other incarnation of the game. If you kick down the door, kill the monsters, and level up your characters, it's still D&D. ;)
4E had an awesome design team that nailed the game they set out to make.

We can debates the whys forever (it seems we already have), but it turned out that the game they set out to make was not the game that some important fraction of the fanbase wanted.

Well done design and design of a great thing are not the same.

And... if you're complaining or criticising about how everyone else is doing it, how you prefer to do it, and explaining how your way is better, then you're probably a D&D fan with too much time on your hands! :D
Meh, 4E has been gone for a long time and yet there seem to be people with nothing better to do than start new threads about how other people not liking 4E is a character flaw
 

BryonD

Hero
They are all samey, so of course someone would find them samey. So there is no point other than perspective.

Go back and look at the very first line of my very first reply in this thread.

Edit: and PF lasted way past 4E, so I think your meme culture timescale is off. (Though memes certainly existed back then as well, and that is, yet again, a distraction from the point anyway).

Edit #2: And regarding "Angel Summoners and BMX Bandit. ", so what you are saying is that you like 4E because it was more samey than 3X..... gotcha.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Go back and look at the very first line of my very first reply in this thread.

Edit: and PF lasted way past 4E, so I think your meme culture timescale is off. (Though memes certainly existed back then as well, and that is, yet again, a distraction from the point anyway).

Edit #2: And regarding "Angel Summoners and BMX Bandit. ", so what you are saying is that you like 4E because it was more samey than 3X..... gotcha.

I'm not saying I like 4e more or less than 3e. All the editions are flawed. My favorite edition currently is 6e.

I am saying like you said: It's all relative. All the editions use samey mechanics. It's a matter of perspective and presentation.
 

Shiroiken

Legend
The powers themselves aren't same-y, it was the fact that everyone progressed in powers the exact same way. This made the classes (within the four roles) very same-y. It was as if everyone was a spellcaster following the exact same spell progression, with limited choice of spell selection (even more restricted than Vancian).
 

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