D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[BryonD]

and everyone feeling equal.

You know I gotta chuckle at your choice of phrase here.
And, no, I don't think this is a gotcha. But it is amusing.

 

[Garthanos]

A slow grind is different from a resource management trek is different from a all out brawl is different from a "mob minibosss mob big boss" schedule is different from a 2-3 form boss fight.

4e was the only edition that allowed all that out the box without turning knob mid-session.

Variations of action intensity and resource management profiles in game challenge all supported out of the box.... yeh that is the 4e style.

 

[BryonD]

Imagine that: a criticism of the game that ends up not being true.

Not at all hard to imagine. It certainly cuts both ways.

 

[Don Durito]

These threads always remind me of when a reviewer watches a film and summarises the plot incorrectly or states that the plot was confusing and difficult to follow and then someone in the comments jumps in and says "you idiot the plot was easy to follow you're just not paying attention."

 

[Zardnaar]

I feel if they had started with essentials classes right of the bat that 4e would have lasted a bit longer. The classes have a different feel because they aren't bound completely to the AEDU system. The Knight and Slayer didn't have any dailies that made me stop and go, "wait, why can I only do this once a day?" Now that I'm looking at the essentials classes, I'm wondering how easy it would be to bring them (at least in spirit) into 5e. Right now I'm thinking of the

I do think that many powers were "samey" the worst though were base class features; healing word and inspiring word were identical and as a core ability of those classes, you'd really want there to be some sort of differentiation there which you do find with later leader classes. That's not to say there weren't differences, the warlord and cleric would play differently based on their class powers. Just looking at the level 1 encounter and daily powers in PHB1, clerics had a lot more healing and could have a couple of AoE spells whereas the warlord could only target a single creature but had effects that allowed others to make an additional attack at the warlord's target. Really though, you could have snuck in powers from a different class and your DM wouldn't have been any wiser unless they decided to sit down and look your powers up in the book.

Probably not doesn't fix the fundamental problem.

It's basically taking your pig, buying a nice dress for it and wrapping it in a red box and whispering sweet nothings in it's ear. You even bought a new shade of lipstick for your pig.

Same result except 10 years later Garthanos would be here telling us the Saudi Arabia Pork Import Emporium failed because the Saudi consumer doesn't understand the product. He offered them salami and bacon and it's the best salami and bacon eva.

Meanwhile Mearls and Co Halal Chicken Emporium is doing gangbusters.

 

[FrogReaver]

On 5e sameyness vs 4e sameyness:

In 5e the differences in your barbarian, fighter, rogue, ranger and paladin are in plain view.

They all have different resources and vastly different benefits from expending those resources (even though most translate roughly into the same math damage value under "ideal" circumstances)

Barbarian
1 Daily Resource in rage for damage and damage reduction over whole encounter
1 At will resource in reckless attack (grants more offense for less defense)

Fighter
1 Encounter Resource in 2nd Wind
1 Encounter Resource in Action Surge

Rogue
At will resource in sneak attack
At will resource in cunning action

Ranger
Daily Resource of spells - primary spell style is to cast a damage buff spell that will be used the whole encounter

Paladin
Daily Reource of spells - primary spell style is to divine smite enemies (using a single spell slot for a large burst of damage)

Now let's look at 4e.

Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Paladin
At will resource - most do 1W + some small rider effect
Encounter Resource - most do 2W + slightly larger rider effect
Daily Resource - most do 3W + small rider effect or 2W + large rider effect

I know which appears more samey to me.

That said - let me explain what I liked about 4e. I could comb over the power lists and put together some really unique power combinations (at least relative to the rest of 4e) that pushed toward a particular coherent style. Character building in the game was extremely fun and relative to the rest of the system you could make some very varied characters.

Ultimately though, while I could make characters unique from anything else in 4e's system, there are other systems like 5e where for example, barbarian and fighters already have very unique powers both in terms of recharge structure and effects - with no combing through tomes of material to try and force them to be unique.

1. Power Structure
2. Effects of their powers/abilities

Likewise roles while distinct from each other also felt samey amongst themselves.
All leaders got healing
All defenders got marking
All controllers got debuffing

And they mostly did so in very similar ways.
Leader's all got a nearly identical heal
Defenders all functioned via a mark which gave -2 Attack

So if you want to know why I find 4e more samey I think that should explain it.

 

[Minigiant]

shrug If you perceive it this way, then whatever.
If you insist that nobody can perceive it differently, then that is just silly.

I'm definitely saying people can perceive it differently. I am saying well..

Perceptions don't have to be logical.
That's how stage magic works.

I've only seen one logical argument for powers being to samey that doesn't have to do with class sameyness, presentation, 4e's overall homogeneity, or its other bigger problems. That's point of decision.

OK. This seems to take the idea of sameness into a different axis that doesn't seem relevant. After all, just because you can find a lot of examples of so-called "new" classes and show that not that much new is really there, does not mean the game itself is characterized by this. Clearly, I agree with you that examples of this exist. But something fundamental to the core game is one thing and poorly built extensions of the game are another.

Class Sameyness and "Power System" Sameness are different. The first is between the class the second is the power system itself over the whole game.

The fighter, paladins, and wizard using AED in 4evs only the paladin and wizard doing so in 5e is one form of Sameyness.

The Sure Strike and Valiant Strike being similar is another form of Sameyness.

 

[Minigiant]

You know I gotta chuckle at your choice of phrase here.
And, no, I don't think this is a gotcha. But it is amusing.

Third form of sameyness

Adventure sameyness.

 

[Garthanos]

Defenders all functioned via a mark which gave -2 Attack

That is so incredibly minor an element it was all the riders on that made it different that is so lame and I know I have heard you acknowledge that so its a deception not lack of knowledge.

 

[FrogReaver]

That is so incredibly minor an element it was all the riders on that made it different that is so lame and I know I have heard you acknowledge that so its a deception not lack of knowledge.

For the 100th time - Defenders were the most different of the samey roles on a class by class basis.