D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[FrogReaver]

You could also use the 4E engine to clone 3.5 or Basic. Sure you would strip stuff out and rewrite monsters but you could do it.

Sure, where i'm going is that I think it would be hard to imagine a 3.5e fan disliking 3.5e just because it was presented with a 4e paint job or a 5e fan disliking 5e just because it was presented with a 4e paint job. They may not like that presentation quite as much but their like isn't going to turn into outright dislike of the game.

Which is what I find absurd about the position that it's just 4e's presentation that made so many dislike it.

 

[Zardnaar]

A lack of variety ie sameness of resultant story ability is not really the problem is the only conclusion which is what the op is saying. (there is no exact opposite other than this isn't the one thing)

Choose between twin strike or grab and strike is the 4e analog of swapping out one of your extra attacks for a grab it is not functionally different in the fiction just a structural presentation. There is a bit of every single extra attack class can do it nearly as well and can also take a feat to be just as good. (The 4e brawling fighter has more features for supporting doing that better and more riders for making the grab part of a defenders function) without taking feats.

There is the comparison the fighter in 5e is less unique on every point.

The criticism predates 5E existence. Formatting is totally a thing. But perception is reality.

The formatting doesn't help at all but there's just to many thing wrong with 4E to specifically blame. Powers are a big one, healing surges another, not being a fixed 3.5 etc.

Go have a look at a 2E fighter. It's not 13 pages worth of powers.

 

[Garthanos]

I know typically the best encounter and daily powers for the 4e Fighter and Ranger were powers that let them make multiple attacks

The 4e fighter being able to entice / lock down and mark multiple enemies and apply their defender ability was its best abilities sounds different doesn't it because it is.

Some one pointed out that making the enemy move to the hero even if the attack fails was a real nerf on Come and get it in spite of it being technically less damaging/less likely to succeed on the hit.

 

[Zardnaar]

Sure, where i'm going is that I think it would be hard to imagine a 3.5e fan disliking 3.5e just because it was presented with a 4e paint job or a 5e fan disliking 5e just because it was presented with a 4e paint job. They may not like that presentation quite as much but their like isn't going to turn into outright dislike of the game.

Which is what I find absurd about the position that it's just 4e's presentation that made so many dislike it.

No it's not presentation. It doesn't help but it's the game.

I had my suspicions back in the day most 3E groups were casuals who didn't play high level. 3E fine with that mindset.

Very early 3.0 we played it like 2E with more options. Then you figure out haste etc.

4E couldn't be played like 3.5 no matter how hard you tried. Hell a lot of spells were unchanged in 2E to 3.5 or were only changed in minor ways.

Even harm looked very similar the change to the casting time broke it.

 

[Garthanos]

The criticism predates 5E existence. Formatting is totally a thing. But perception is reality.

Niche protection must not be important in D&D any more is perhaps one auxiliary conclusion. It certainly does not exist in 5e in any real form. Other than casters still having way more versatile non-combat capability at least that is dependable.

 

[Zardnaar]

Niche protection must not be important in D&D any more is perhaps one auxiliary conclusion. It certainly does not exist in 5e in any real form. Other than casters still having way more versatile non-combat capability at least that is dependable.

Niche protection started to break down in 2E but yeah 5E has carried it further.

I think some things like the basic weapon styles in 5E should be on the warrior types then if you cloned 4E layer the powers in top of that.

Something like force powers in SWSE which were encounter powers but with whatever rate of powers and feats makes sense.
I think you could use 5E to refine every other edition even if you went in a different direction than 5E.

 

[Garthanos]

Niche protection started to break down in 2E but yeah 5E has carried it further.

4e niches were basically the roles which are actually more complex than the big 4 while a class could swivel between 2 in a sort of hard fashion via feats and a bit more fluidly via power selection that was about it there is no Druid that can do anything like the 3e DruidZilla of Infamy

 

[Garthanos]

How did niche protection break down in 2e? that is an edition i am almost completely disconnected from. Yes i read the DMG and players handbook even still own them but?

 

[FrogReaver]

Choose between twin strike or grab and strike is the 4e analog of swapping out one of your extra attacks for a grab it is not functionally different in the fiction just a structural presentation. There is a bit of every single extra attack class can do it nearly as well and can also take a feat to be just as good. (The 4e brawling fighter has more features for supporting doing that better and more riders for making the grab part of a defenders function) without taking feats.

There is the comparison the fighter in 5e is less unique on every point.

One of the places 4e was not very samey was intra-class builds. It actually did a good job there.

That said - from an intra-class perspective - 5e's prepackaged subclass abilities tend to be far more unique than you would typically achieve using 4e's class building blocks.

I think I should say it this way - having more features supporting a particular build path in 4e than in 5e doesn't imply that path is more unique in 4e than in 5e (relative to the other build paths in the game)

 

[Zardnaar]

4e niches were basically the roles which are actually more complex than the big 4 while a class could swivel between 2 in a sort of hard fashion via feats and a bit more fluidly via power selection that was about it there is no Druid that can do anything like the 3e DruidZilla of Infamy

Late 3E I hoyseruled the crap out of it. UA variant Druid, ban list etc. Added so much 2E back into it tried 2E and the group signed off on it so we played that and OSR until 5E.

Didn't go to far down the PF splat.