D&D 5E Is 5e the Least-Challenging Edition of D&D?

[Lanefan]

Ideally yeah, but the game has trouble even balancing ONE temporal unit of challenge, so I find it hard to believe they would be able to pull off multiple units in a single game. There's not standard length for an Adventure, or a Campaign for exemple, so how do you balance out the mechanics so that player have the ressources to overcome the challenge? Let alone balance it so one character doesn't obviate the participation of others? At best you'd need a type of reset mechanic (AKA rest types) for each different unit of challenge AND each classes would need a suite of ressources that fit each unit of challenge (AKA an AEDU style system) with maybe the ratio between each tweaked to avoid samey-ness.

The answer there is to just stop worrying about micro-balance or even mid-range balance and just accept that some characters are going to be significantly better than others in some situations and-or against some types of challenge. Then it's on the DM to mix up the challenges.

If the characters find they haven't got the resources to overcome a challenge then it's on them to figure out how (or if) to proceed. Not every challenge is defeatable.

 

[Undrave]

The answer there is to just stop worrying about micro-balance or even mid-range balance and just accept that some characters are going to be significantly better than others in some situations and-or against some types of challenge. Then it's on the DM to mix up the challenges.

If the characters find they haven't got the resources to overcome a challenge then it's on them to figure out how (or if) to proceed. Not every challenge is defeatable.

« just figure it out, lol » isn’t much of a game design approach. If a challenge isn’t defeatable then it’s a wall, not a challenge.

The mid balance means that not everyone is the best at large swaths of the game while someone is only good at s specific thing. Ideally every class would have a thing they do better than any body else, some stuff they do better than the majority of class, some stuff they do worse than the majority and like one blind spot where they suck, but nothing where they are utterly useless because you can’t account for party structure.

and you still need a way to convey challenge level to a DM so they are knowingly putting obstacles and no one kills players by complete accident. I don't think you can properly convey challenge level to a DM without having a decent baseline level of efficiency to contrast it against.

 

[tetrasodium]

« just figure it out, lol » isn’t much of a game design approach. If a challenge isn’t defeatable then it’s a wall, not a challenge.

The mid balance means that not everyone is the best at large swaths of the game while someone is only good at s specific thing. Ideally every class would have a thing they do better than any body else, some stuff they do better than the majority of class, some stuff they do worse than the majority and like one blind spot where they suck, but nothing where they are utterly useless because you can’t account for party structure.

and you still need a way to convey challenge level to a DM so they are knowingly putting obstacles and no one kills players by complete accident. I don't think you can properly convey challenge level to a DM without having a decent baseline level of efficiency to contrast it against.

Or it means that they have learned an important lesson about pacing themselves & will need to expend a bunch of non-recharging resources like potions wand charges etc that they were saving in a box inscribed with "break glass in case of emergency".

 

[Undrave]

Or it means that they have learned an important lesson about pacing themselves & will need to expend a bunch of non-recharging resources like potions wand charges etc that they were saving in a box inscribed with "break glass in case of emergency".

Then they overcame it with those limited ressources? then it's a challenge. I'm just saying DnD isn't the kind of game where people accept the 'scripted to lose encounter' found in certain video games.

Man... it doesn't have anything to do with this discussion but I think 'Wand charges' is probably my LEAST favourite DnD trope.

 

[tetrasodium]

Then they overcame it with those limited ressources? then it's a challenge. I'm just saying DnD isn't the kind of game where people accept the 'scripted to lose encounter' found in certain video games.

Man... it doesn't have anything to do with this discussion but I think 'Wand charges' is probably my LEAST favourite DnD trope.

They didn't just overcome it with those limited resources. Now they are without the emergency stash of backup tools that kept them feeling safe enough to be reckless & need to put more consideration into questions like "should I use my $limitedResource class ability now or save it" & prioritize rebuilding that stash.

As a gm they are an important factor to consider. In 5e those items just get used down to 1 charge & put away till they are full in a day or two.

I have no problems with wands that don't use charges for certain effects, but those effects are different from leveled spells. One of my games has or had a few wand/rod/staff/etc that:

• Add X cantrip to your spell list while attuned
• Add +1 damage to spells that deal various damage types (although I think only the fire one is used)
• increase the range of x & y spell by Z when cast using this focus
• wand of the war mage +1
• etc

As an example, look at the robe of stars
in the past it has a handful of very nice effects that are used sparingly for emergencies plus some minor stuff that is available more often. In 5e it still has the minor stuff but now those very nice effects are available 1d6+1 times per day. You could say "well that's a very rare robe" & have a point if the merely uncommon wand of magic missile did not have 7 charges & regain 1d6+1 each day but never need to risk that 5% chance of crumbling to ash if you never use that last charge.

 

[Lanefan]

« just figure it out, lol » isn’t much of a game design approach. If a challenge isn’t defeatable then it’s a wall, not a challenge.

A wall is still a challenge. You just have to think differently to find a way to deal with it, which might include doing something else instead and leaving it for later.

The mid balance means that not everyone is the best at large swaths of the game while someone is only good at s specific thing. Ideally every class would have a thing they do better than any body else, some stuff they do better than the majority of class, some stuff they do worse than the majority and like one blind spot where they suck, but nothing where they are utterly useless because you can’t account for party structure.

This, but amended slightly: in fact yes, have something each class is more or less useless at. And if they insist on a party structure that doesn't cover off this weakness, so be it.

and you still need a way to convey challenge level to a DM so they are knowingly putting obstacles and no one kills players by complete accident. I don't think you can properly convey challenge level to a DM without having a decent baseline level of efficiency to contrast it against.

In 3e this was a very important thing, as getting the CR wrong by even a bit was bad news one way or the other. 4e also, but to a lesser extent; and everyone had enough of a hit point buffer that if things were really going wrong they had a chance to bail out.

In 0-1-2-5e challenge level isn't nearly as important, the systems are much more forgiving and a DM can in fact learn by simple trial and error.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I think this is a result of the designer not being able to make tracking these things interesting, thus nobody ever bothered to track them so they just made them irrelevant to speed it up. Tracking torches and rations is bookkeeping and that's not an interesting challenge. Even picking who holds the torch isn't much of a challenge once you solve it one time. And Darkvision makes torches unnecessary before even taking a cantrip That said, Goodberry takes a spell slot and at lower level that could be a problem.

IIRC Mike Mearls said at one point that he really didn't think any of that stuff was fun, so they more or less clipped it out of 5e with little more than a token gesture. There's still a lot of 4e DNA left in 5e, with how the design is mostly centered on the combat engine. It's too bad they couldn't find a way to make surviving in the wilderness, exfiltrating from the dungeon with your loot, and all that more engaging.

As far as the combat engine itself goes, perhaps the biggest thing missing is any sense that a particular brutal battle has any lingering effects. No weapons are ruined, no armor is left in tatters, no bones are broken, nobody is crippled, etc. Getting a good night's sleep hits the reset button on everything except Petrification. In my games, I add a level of exhaustion every time you get knocked out by damage, and that has changed things up a little bit.

Also, most people forget that if you are in the dark and relying on your Darkvision, your Passive Perception takes a -5 penalty and your active Perception rolls are at disadvantage.

 

[Undrave]

In 0-1-2-5e challenge level isn't nearly as important, the systems are much more forgiving and a DM can in fact learn by simple trial and error.

Yeah but apparently the challenge level in 5e is too low and I hear people are complaining about it...

 

[Helldritch]

Is 5ed the least challenging of the editions...
Well, ask that to my second group that was doing the Prince of the Apocalypse. An adventure that some people rated as an easy picking...
The group was literally storming the earth cult. They had obliterated the water cult and destroyed the artifact, destroying the node and the Crushing Wave power base. The 10th level group, armed to the teeth and six players strong was set on destroying the earth cult.

The first two levels of the Earth cult were done with a breeze and they even succeeded in allying themselves with the Lich. Well... ally is a big word but with the persuasion check made I can at least call the lich an ally of convenience. All was well and good. They retreated for the night and came back for third level. Marlos set up a welcome comity on the third level with reinforcements. The welcome comity was utterly crushed with just a few ressources. Knowing about duergards they had a detect invisibility active as they were going down. So they were not surprise.They encountered the Mud Mage and with (again) a persuasion roll that would've made Asmodeus reform into goodness, obtained neutrality from the Mud Mage in not giving the alert. The Mud Mage agreed and in exchange for his life offered a lay out of the level, the defenses and number of troops waiting for the group. He even told them that the Medusa Marlos was about to conjure up Ogremoch.

The group was using the Fire in the hole tactic with silence spells placed strategically so that the sound of a fireball would not sound the alarm. A sound tactic that had and that works well. That is when everything crumbled to dust.

They rolled a good initiative, the fireball goes in the face of the opposition with a meager 20 points of damage... The monk goes in the first group (I placed them randomly in front of the players, people likes it as it gives the encounter an organic non static feel) and misses all but one of her attacks. Then the Earth priest casts a defensive spell and tells to two of his guards: "SOUND THE ALARM and you two block the way." and the guards who were next in initiatives act. Two of the 4 surviving guards go through the door opposite of the players and run down the corridor in two opposing directions. One goes to the door where the players are (suffering 10 points of damages from the monk with her AO) and take the dodge stance. The last one goes to the other door and take the dodge stance too. To make a long story short. TPK.

The second group had a few close call with the earth temple too but they managed.

So if you ask me if the 5ed is carebear...nope it's not. In third edition, the group would've survived quite easily.

 

[Undrave]

One goes to the door where the players are (suffering 10 points of damages from the monk with her AO) and take the dodge stance.

You know, the guard could have taken the Dodge action BEFORE moving, probably making the monk miss and making the whole thing worse