D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[FrogReaver]

She is using it 2H - hence d8s. Unarmed strikes start as d4s, upgrade to d6s at level 5.

Maybe I read it wrong but I swear I didn't see d8 on the monk

so why are you comparing the highest damage low level fighter to the monk?

 

[Xeviat]

no it doesn't, at lest not in magnitude.

Yeah it does. At 5th level, the Paladin gets 2 2nd level spells, recovered on a long rest, which can be burned for 3d8 damage on a hit, so +6d8 (27) per day.

The Fighter gets an extra attack added to their action surge. They should get 3 action surges each day. At 5th level, they could be dealing 1d8+6 (10.5) to 2d6*+4 (12.33) per attack. 10.5*3 is 31.5, 12.33*3 is 37; 37*0.65 is 24.

They're fairly close.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yeah it does. At 5th level, the Paladin gets 2 2nd level spells, recovered on a long rest, which can be burned for 3d8 damage on a hit, so +6d8 (27) per day.

The Fighter gets an extra attack added to their action surge. They should get 3 action surges each day. At 5th level, they could be dealing 1d8+6 (10.5) to 2d6*+4 (12.33) per attack. 10.5*3 is 31.5, 12.33*3 is 37; 37*0.65 is 24.

They're fairly close.

No. The fighters depends on accuracy. The paladins dont. Rough estimate is fighters values are maybe 60% of what you list.

 

[NotAYakk]

Maybe I read it wrong but I swear I didn't see d8 on the monk

so why are you comparing the highest damage low level fighter to the monk?

Is the BM too strong from 3-4? If so, boosting the champion to match is overkill. To determine this, compare Monk to BM (and Paladin to BM, etc)

I suspect the champion is too weak even at 5+.

 

[FrogReaver]

Is the BM too strong from 3-4? If so, boosting the champion to match is overkill. To determine this, compare Monk to BM (and Paladin to BM, etc)

I suspect the champion is too weak even at 5+.

Agreed but I’m not talking about battlemaster. I’m talking about TWF fighter

 

[Xeviat]

No. The fighters depends on accuracy. The paladins dont. Rough estimate is fighters values are maybe 60% of what you list.

Like ... I just took accuracy into the equation there. ACs in 5E are pretty low, a 65% hit rate is pretty common, and a greatsword fighter's extra damage from their extra attack interacting with their action surge keeps reasonable pace with the paladin's 2 new 2nd level slots.

Greatsword is 2d6 damage, reroll 1s and 2s, for 8.33 average. Level 5 Fighter can easily have an 18 Str if they don't grab a feat at 4th. That's 12.33 damage on a hit. 2 short rests per long rest means 3 action surges. At 65% hit rate, that's 24.

2 2nd level smites per day is 27. Those are really close.

 

[NotAYakk]

18 rounds, 136 attacks, per day. If half of attacks have advantage, that is 2.7 crits/day. Smart paladins put one or both level 2 smites into crits. That means the smites each add 3d8, and they up 2 crits from +2d8 to +3d8, or 8d8 damage is gained from smites at level 5.

The crits on a fighter don't focus as much. I guess with 2 attacks, they are more likely to save BM dice for crits.

 

[Xeviat]

18 rounds, 136 attacks, per day. If half of attacks have advantage, that is 2.7 crits/day. Smart paladins put one or both level 2 smites into crits. That means the smites each add 3d8, and they up 2 crits from +2d8 to +3d8, or 8d8 damage is gained from smites at level 5.

The crits on a fighter don't focus as much. I guess with 2 attacks, they are more likely to save BM dice for crits.

I've never seen players get advantage on half their attacks, but we don't play with flanking advantage, so we're likely seeing things from a different angle.

 

[Xeviat]

Also, upon further glancing, Paladin also gets an extra 1st level slot at 5th level.

But, my point is that Action surge is a rather hefty ability for a 2nd level ability. It is compounded upon each time the fighter gains an extra attack, and it benefits from magic weapons, feats, and other increases to the fighter's power. With 2 short rests per long rest, Action surge adds a lot of oomph for one ability.

 

[Xeviat]

Is the BM too strong from 3-4? If so, boosting the champion to match is overkill. To determine this, compare Monk to BM (and Paladin to BM, etc)

I suspect the champion is too weak even at 5+.

Comparing BM to Monk is a little more tough. 1 ki for flurry adds +1 attack over their standard routine. That's 1d4+3 (5.5) damage with a miss chance, compared to the fighter's 1d8 damage with no miss chance. So at 3rd level, superiority dice outstrip ki, and that's without looking at Action Surge. The monk's 1d8+3 +1d4+3 (13) matches up with the Fighter's 2d6*+3 (13.33) routine.

The fighter likely has +1 AC over the monk and some hp. The monk has higher speed, deflect missiles, and their monastic tradition feature (shadow and way of four elements just give new ways to spend ki, open hand gives a nice rider on the flurry attacks, but the BM has riders too).

Compared to the Monk ... I think the BM has too many superiority dice at low levels.