D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[NotAYakk]

Here is a stab at Champ:

Improved Critical

[Unchanged]

Get Back Up

You can expend your reaction when reduced to 0 HP to use your second wind, if available. Your HP are set to the amount healed by second wind, instead of 0, and additional damage is ignored. When you use your second wind, you gain advantage on all weapon attacks, saving throws and ability checks until the end of your next turn.

Remarkable Athlete

Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (rounded up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus. If you are proficient in Athletics or Acrobatics, you may add your proficiency bonus twice to such rolls instead of once.

In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength(Athletics) modifier.

Practice makes Perfect

At 10th level, you can choose a second option from the Fighting Style class feature, and you can use Second Wind an additional time before taking a short or long rest.

Superior Critical

[Unchanged]

Survivor

At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don't gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points. In addition, you roll all saving throws with advantage.

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I think this remains simple, but is now significantly stronger.

Second Wind has synergy with its crit-fishing. It gives a survival boost as well (reaction second wind) if you don't want to be aggressive. Using it "early" gives you more offence, saving it for ignore 0 is more defence.

The 2nd fighting style (aka +1 AC or similar) also gives another second wind use.

To Survivor I added advantage on all saving throws (including death saving throws). That with Indomidable makes this Champion harder to put down.

I was tempted to add a "when reduced to 0 HP by damage, make a Constitution saving throw against the damage taken; if you succeed, you are instead reduced to 1 HP" die-hard to it.

 

[Minigiant]

Those social and exploration powers are very strange to me. I have no idea why expending a combat superiority die to help me be more intimidating would prevent me from using a different maneuver in combat.

It's more of a way to say stamina without saying stamina. In D&D, stamina is tied to HP and it gets wonky talking about it.

But appearantly, social interaction is tiring for introverts.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

It's more of a way to say stamina without saying stamina. In D&D, stamina is tied to HP and it gets wonky talking about it.

But appearantly, social interaction is tiring for introverts.

Apparently all battle masters are introverts.

 

[FrogReaver]

The hand-to-hand Fighter has no extra accuracy over the Paladin at any level.

1. Level 6 extra ASI can be translated into extra accuracy
2. I wasn't actually talking about accuracy of fighter and Paladin - but rather how accuracy applies to action surge vs divine smite.

 

[FrogReaver]

Here is a stab at Champ:

Improved Critical

[Unchanged]

Get Back Up

You can expend your reaction when reduced to 0 HP to use your second wind, if available. Your HP are set to the amount healed by second wind, instead of 0, and additional damage is ignored. When you use your second wind, you gain advantage on all weapon attacks, saving throws and ability checks until the end of your next turn.

Remarkable Athlete

Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (rounded up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus. If you are proficient in Athletics or Acrobatics, you may add your proficiency bonus twice to such rolls instead of once.

In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength(Athletics) modifier.

Practice makes Perfect

At 10th level, you can choose a second option from the Fighting Style class feature, and you can use Second Wind an additional time before taking a short or long rest.

Superior Critical

[Unchanged]

Survivor

At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don't gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points. In addition, you roll all saving throws with advantage.

---

I think this remains simple, but is now significantly stronger.

Second Wind has synergy with its crit-fishing. It gives a survival boost as well (reaction second wind) if you don't want to be aggressive. Using it "early" gives you more offence, saving it for ignore 0 is more defence.

The 2nd fighting style (aka +1 AC or similar) also gives another second wind use.

To Survivor I added advantage on all saving throws (including death saving throws). That with Indomidable makes this Champion harder to put down.

I was tempted to add a "when reduced to 0 HP by damage, make a Constitution saving throw against the damage taken; if you succeed, you are instead reduced to 1 HP" die-hard to it.

I like get back up.

 

[FrogReaver]

Like ... I just took accuracy into the equation there. ACs in 5E are pretty low, a 65% hit rate is pretty common, and a greatsword fighter's extra damage from their extra attack interacting with their action surge keeps reasonable pace with the paladin's 2 new 2nd level slots.

Greatsword is 2d6 damage, reroll 1s and 2s, for 8.33 average. Level 5 Fighter can easily have an 18 Str if they don't grab a feat at 4th. That's 12.33 damage on a hit. 2 short rests per long rest means 3 action surges. At 65% hit rate, that's 24.

2 2nd level smites per day is 27. Those are really close.

Apologizes I missed the .65 in your calculation.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Why not wait until you find out if you actually end up with two different Fighters in your game? Because comparing the damage of the Champion and the Battlemaster is unnecessary if you don't have both actually competing against each other at the table.

There is never any point in trying to "balance" fictionalized PC builds against each other... because you spend all this time doing it only to discover no one takes any of the builds you spent all this time rebalancing. Heck even now you could try and rebalance the Champion against this fictional Battlemaster build... only to find out after the fact that your BM player decided to take a number of maneuvers that don't grant damage bonuses to the Battlemaster. They took Evasive Footwork, Parry, and Precision Attack, and now all of a sudden your Champion is far outpacing the Battlemaster in damage. All this work and you went too far in the opposite direction. So why not just let your players take what they want... not worry about white-room "balance" right now... and then see how the game goes? Wait until you actually have a table with a Champion and a Battlemaster together and one of them is actually being outclassed by the other before bothering to try and "fix" things.

...unless of course you are doing all of this work just because you're bored and it's a fun thought experiment to do while you whittle away the time until the game actually starts. If that's the case, then go for it! I'm all about playing around and experimenting with potential house rules just to keep my mind busy in the downtime, knowing full well the ideas and solutions I come up with will never actually mean anything or get used.

 

[NotAYakk]

I like get back up.

It could also be called Not Today.

It is fun because (a) it grants power in a new direction, and (b) it is simple, yet an interesting tactical choice.

I'm uncertain if it should cost a reaction. It might make the player a bit disappointed when they do an OA, then drop, and cannot get back up again (or make them overly cautious about using reactions).

 

[FrogReaver]

Also, upon further glancing, Paladin also gets an extra 1st level slot at 5th level.

But, my point is that Action surge is a rather hefty ability for a 2nd level ability. It is compounded upon each time the fighter gains an extra attack, and it benefits from magic weapons, feats, and other increases to the fighter's power. With 2 short rests per long rest, Action surge adds a lot of oomph for one ability.

Yea. It's a strong ability. No one denied that - just that it wasn't adding as much from level 4 to 5 as the paladin divine smite adds.

 

[FrogReaver]

Why not wait until you find out if you actually end up with two different Fighters in your game? Because comparing the damage of the Champion and the Battlemaster is unnecessary if you don't have both actually competing against each other at the table.

I think you are totally missing the point. It's not about once play starts. It's about having the champion as a competitive option to pick from before the game starts.