D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Garthanos]

I agree that too much was put into the class and not enough into subclass. I think that at 3rd level you should just fork off into the subclass and any ability that should be present in multiple subclasses could just be added into that progression.

I think parent classes can be made to be more flexible too. But the need for super simple in the base class seems to fight that... flexibility is a complication. They do not have a Wizard super simple subclass do they?

 

[Garthanos]

Yes, and my table displays that. 4e powers are as samey as 5e spells or 3e attacks.

4e Powers do a moderate range of effects. All PC classes use them. However it only handle all levels of offense, low levels of defense and low levels of utility.

Are you saying because defense is done In class for most classes A wizard doesn't cast an explicit mage armor ritual he gets his intelligence as a standard armor class and the like? A fighter of several builds seems an exception and can do with powers quite a bit of defense via damage resistance and temporary hit points for instance. Battlerager did so rather heavily till nerfed. (a change I kind of found over heavy)

 

[Maxperson]

I think parent classes can be made to be more flexible too. But the need for super simple in the base class seems to fight that... flexibility is a complication. They do not have a Wizard super simple subclass do they?

No they don't, but they don't need to make a simple version of every class. One simple martial and one simple spellcaster should be sufficient.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

That actually is a good point its not actually fair to compare 4e spells to 5e spells directly you have to compare 4e spells plus rituals to 5e spells since 5e spells ate a lot of things 4e put into that separate category ie rituals (and 5e has minimal rituals with next to none as rituals in comparison to hundreds in 4e). Lumping things differently based on category oh my things within that category end up a bit more the same with each other hmmm I wonder why that happens.... smh.

Perhaps. But due to restrictions on rituals, in 2 years of playing 5e, I never saw one cast - not a single one. Time and gold always prevents my players from using them. My group may have been an outlier. I don't know - but when playing other editions, illusions, etc. are a staple of my groups' tactics for avoiding combat and conserving resources.

 

[Garthanos]

No they don't, but they don't need to make a simple version of every class. One simple martial and one simple spellcaster should be sufficient.

Well I have been tweaking the fighter to enable its subclasses to be not all tough striker tiny bits of something else A recent idea adds an ability of the base fighter class to engage in a morning exercise where the expend their action surge to add a CS die (or actually a number of them equal to the attacks you could do in the surge) and associated maneuver could increase the access to maneuvers. The champion NOT interested in maneuvers saves his Action Surge and the PDK or the Battlemaster or the Cavalier then can more easily pull in maneuvers that interact with their rather obvious roles.

 

[Minigiant]

Are you saying because defense is done In class for most classes A wizard doesn't cast an explicit mage armor ritual he gets his intelligence as a standard armor class and the like? A fighter of several builds seems an exception and can do with powers quite a bit of defense via damage resistance and temporary hit points for instance. Battlerager did so rather heavily till nerfed. (a change I kind of found over heavy)

I'm saying that what Spells and Power do are different. Powers handle quick short lasting effects. They can't last 8 hours like mage armor. This has to be a ritual or class feature.

D&D shifted from attacks, spells, and class features to powers, rituals, and class features in the jump from 3e to 4e. Essentially Attacks were upgraded into Powers. Spells were seriously downgraded into Rituals. Class features were upgraded a little.

 

[Garthanos]

Spells were seriously downgraded into Rituals.

Watch how decked out a high level party can be by massive ritual casting (particularly some of the low level ones) the party now breaths water can affect normal fires and so many things at will sheesh they drip with magic. It's not battle magic sure.... ummm that is the point though

 

[Oofta]

LOL, you're not disagreeing with me.

Hey now, I saw an opportunity to make a joke and I took it! If I'm going to be a hermit/shut-in for the next few weeks I have to do something for entertainment.

P.S. Did you decide to get the credit card they sponsored? I mean, it's awesome to be a card carrying member of the anti-4E cabal and all but I'm really excited that I've negged on 4E enough to qualify for the platinum card.

 

[Garthanos]

Powers handle quick short lasting effects. They can't last 8 hours like mage armor. This has to be a ritual or class feature.

Long term resources for long term benefits... Class features are functionally also long term persistent resources under the hood even without money cost. I can spend 10 minutes in the morning and be wearing magical armor... it takes that much time to put on a suit of physical armor too.

 

[Minigiant]

Watch how decked out a high level party can be by massive ritual casting (particularly some of the low level ones) the party now breaths water can affect normal fires and so many things at will sheesh they drip with magic. Its not battle magic sure.... ummm that is the point though

It's not battle magic. That's the point.

	Attacks	Spells	Powers	Rituals
Powerful Offense	Y	Y	Y	N
Quick Offense	Y	Y	Y	N
Long Term Offense	N	Y	N	N
Powerful Defense	N	Y	Y	N
Quick Defense	Y	Y	Y	N
Long Term Defense	N	Y	N	Y
Powerful Utility	N	Y	N	Y
Quick Utility	N	Y	Y	N
Long Term Utility	N	Y	N	Y