D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Minigiant]

I’m almost certain there are classes with daily powers that last longer than that, and like with other complaints, at worst that is only true of powers. Rituals exist.

Yeah Teemu reminded me that a few daily utility powers last longer than 5 minutes. But that's like 1% of them.

The point was that the 4e designers purposely turned long lasted and powerful utility spells into rituals to prevent abuse. People who claim powerful utility effects were absent in 4e were wrong. They exist as rituals in slightly weaker or more expensive forms.

Isn't not "powers vs spells". It's "powers and rituals vs attacks and spells". 4e just punts all combat ability and quick utility into the AEDU power system. The rest was made rituals.

 

[Garthanos]

A few exceptions

• Hold Portal 1 standard action...
• Change Self (from a scroll 1 standard action)
• Continual Light (from a scroll 1 standard action)

 

[Garthanos]

A 1 minute to perform ritual could be cast from scroll in 5 rounds making it a get me some guards while I do this ritual

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Yeah Teemu reminded me that a few daily utility powers last longer than 5 minutes. But that's like 1% of them.

The point was that the 4e designers purposely turned long lasted and powerful utility spells into rituals to prevent abuse. People who claim powerful utility effects were absent in 4e were wrong. They exist as rituals in slightly weaker or more expensive forms.

Isn't not "powers vs spells". It's "powers and rituals vs attacks and spells". 4e just but all combat abilu and quick utility into the AEDU power system. The rest was made rituals.

Rituals, honestly, are pretty lame. They are much more limited than spells. The separation between combat and non-combat magic really limits characters and make them samey.

One of my 5e players brought the following characters to a game. How could you approximate them in 4e.

Wild Magic Sorcerer
Spells known
Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand
1st: Disguise Self, Feather Fall

He was a stage illusionist whose tricks had the habit of backfiring. He was coward masquerading as a pacifist who did everything possible to avoid combat.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah Teemu reminded me that a few daily utility powers last longer than 5 minutes. But that's like 1% of them.

The point was that the 4e designers purposely turned long lasted and powerful utility spells into rituals to prevent abuse. People who claim powerful utility effects were absent in 4e were wrong. They exist as rituals in slightly weaker or more expensive forms.

Isn't not "powers vs spells". It's "powers and rituals vs attacks and spells". 4e just but all combat abilu and quick utility into the AEDU power system. The rest was made rituals.

Yep, and in terms of a given specific character, it was very doable to have a more out of combat focused character, the game just wasn’t presented in a way that showed that off.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Rituals, honestly, are pretty lame. They are much more limited than spells. The separation between combat and non-combat magic really limits characters and make them samey.

One of my 5e players brought the following characters to a game. How could you approximate them in 4e.

Wild Magic Sorcerer
Spells known
Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand
1st: Disguise Self, Feather Fall

He was a stage illusionist whose tricks had the habit of backfiring. He was coward masquerading as a pacifist who did everything possible to avoid combat.

Lol this response doesn’t even make sense.

You’re claiming that a feature that further differentiates characters makes them samey. That’s wild.

And no one needs to build hypothetical characters for you, bud.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not really.

Well, we end up with Paladins of the Nine Hells who heal with a touch, protect people with their aura, and do radiant damage on smites, so...I'm going to continue to believe that too much was put on the class chassis versus the subclass chassis.

If your point is that 5e needs more classes I agree.

 

[FrogReaver]

Lol this response doesn’t even make sense.

You’re claiming that a feature that further differentiates characters makes them samey. That’s wild.

And no one needs to build hypothetical characters for you, bud.

Then you are still not understanding what samey means. Pointing out a difference doesn't mean something isn't samey.

 

[Teemu]

Rituals, honestly, are pretty lame. They are much more limited than spells. The separation between combat and non-combat magic really limits characters and make them samey.

One of my 5e players brought the following characters to a game. How could you approximate them in 4e.

Wild Magic Sorcerer
Spells known
Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand
1st: Disguise Self, Feather Fall

He was a stage illusionist whose tricks had the habit of backfiring. He was coward masquerading as a pacifist who did everything possible to avoid combat.

All those spells or their equivalents exist in 4e. The exception is that they are wizard-only spells — sorcerers have their own unique spell list. For attack spells, the 4e version can select non-damaging control spells. By the way, 4e has dedicated support for a total pacifist cleric, unlike 5e.

Utility powers are not combat powers or spells. They can be, and many are, but many are non-combat oriented, or can be used both in and out of combat encounters. There are hundreds and hundreds of utility powers.

Rituals extend all the way to level 30, unlike 5e ritual spells that only cover lower levels. For example, you can’t create a 5e character who fights with weapons but knows powerful non-combat ritual magic like scrying, raising the dead, planar travel, or summoning celestial assistance. And it’s true that in some ways rituals are more limited than traditional D&D spells, but that’s because more often than not ritual magic doesn’t let you bypass skills and make them less relevant. Rituals tend to rely on skill checks, which makes 4e skills more important than skills in 3e or 5e.

Still, rituals do allow things like summoning giant eagles for long-term travel, raising the dead, curing diseases lifting curses, scrying, planar travel, illusions and illusory disguises, item creation, turning familiars into mounts, underwater exploration, turning into animals, etc., etc.

Yeah Teemu reminded me that a few daily utility powers last longer than 5 minutes. But that's like 1% of them

There are more utility powers that last longer than an encounter/5 minutes than there are feats in 5e. 4e received a massive amount of published material.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Lol this response doesn’t even make sense.

You’re claiming that a feature that further differentiates characters makes them samey. That’s wild.

And no one needs to build hypothetical characters for you, bud.

I disagree. Because of the way 4e is set up, I can't make a character that wholly focuses on social encounters or exploration. I am required to be a combat beast. Someone above said something about control spells and a dedicated support for a total pacifist cleric. But I'm talking about a non-combat character. Someone who doesn't fight, heal, support, or control - who, instead, uses trickery to avoid combat.