D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[FrogReaver]

Fighting styles are pretty minor though that seems a way to tweak a small easily understandable amount though.

Do you know how much damage per day +2 damage on duelist would grant a champion? It scales with both action surge and extra attack.

Assuming 20 rounds of combat per day and 3 action surge uses that's 23 attack actions (assuming 65% chance to hit), then +2 damage adds the following daily damage values. Looks decently close to the battlemaster in terms of d8 damages.

23*1*2*.65 = 29.9
23*2*2*.65 = 59.8
23*3*2*.65 = 89.7
23*4*2*.65 = 119.6

 

[Garthanos]

Do you know how much damage per day +2 damage on duelist would grant a champion? It scales with both action surge and extra attack.

Hmmm yes that tying into the multi-attack monster thing does make it more significant retracted

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Yes.

BM and EK are only strong if and because the player is experienced.

The Champion is only designed for players who are inexperienced or are not interested in game mechanics. If you don't fall into either of those categories the solution is simple - don't play a champion, it's not for you.

if a player is inexperienced and not interested in game mechanics, and they play a battlemaster anyway, they can just roll a superiority die every time they hit with an attack until they're out. They won't be as effective as a battlemaster who thinks tactically about how to use their dice... but they'll still have more DPR than a champion (barring an extremely long fight). I'll give you eldritch knight, but it is simply not the case that a battlemaster is weak in inexperienced hands.

 

[jgsugden]

Balance is an illusion. You'll never balance everything. The better question is, "Is an option playable and fun?" That answer is yes for the Champion. It is fun to roll 19 and have a crit.

It is also something you can combine with multi-classing to amp the benefits, so they had to be conservative with it.

Regardless, I played a Champion 4 / Frenzy Barbi 16 all the way up. It was Barbi to 5, then Champion 4, then Barbi to 16. And it was a lot of fun and considered overpowered by the DM, despite being a combo of the "most underpowered" fighter and barbarian builds.

 

[Don Durito]

There's nothing to be lost by making the Champion better...

It's a strange argument. I mean if you think the Champion is not weak it's one thing. But if you think it's a bit weak and it doesn't matter, then it also doesn't matter, if it's fixed so it's not a bit weak.

(As long I guess as you're not completely going against the spirit of the class by adding huge amounts of complexity - but no one here has suggested that)

 

[Todd Roybark]

if you think the Champion is not weak it's one thing

It is a Fighter, and the Fighter Chasis prevents one from sucking.

DPR is not all player’s top priority. Enhanced Crits, Extra Fighting style, and Auto Healing are appealing powers, in their own right.

 

[abirdcall]

Remarkable Athlete:

As before except add "Gain proficiency in the athletics skill or if you already have proficiency then your athletics proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability checks which use it (you may not gain this benefit if you already have an ability which doubles your proficiency bonus).

10th level:

Choose an additional fighting style or upgrade a fighting style you already have:

Archery: +4 to attack rolls
Defense: +2 to AC
Dueling: +4 to damage rolls
Great Weapon Fighting: Instead of rerolling, roll twice the number of damage dice and keep the highest (eg. 4d6 keep 2 or 2d12 keep 1).
Protection: The creature has disadvantage on the rest of the attacks that it makes this turn.
Two-Weapon Fighting: Add twice your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.

(Since Archery and Dueling are already the best Fighting Styles they could probably be +3 to hit and +3 to damage as improved versions and still stack up well)

 

[Todd Roybark]

As before except add "Gain proficiency in the athletics skill or if you already have proficiency then your athletics proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability checks which use it (you may not gain this benefit if you already have an ability which doubles your proficiency bonus).

I have this house rule already in effect.

I am not going to enhance fighting styles in the way described. The 9th level Variant Human Champion Fighter with rolled Stats and 104 rolled HP, who also has a 21 AC (from Plate, Shield, the Defense fighting style, and the Heavy Armor Master Feat), does not need a 22 AC.

The player has already trained their initial 10 Dex into a 14 Dex, and the player plans to take the Archery Fighting style at 10th level. Suddenly the Champion Fighter goes from worst to first with bows, by granting a +4 to hit.

 

[Don Durito]

It is a Fighter, and the Fighter Chasis prevents one from sucking.

DPR is not all player’s top priority. Enhanced Crits, Extra Fighting style, and Auto Healing are appealing powers, in their own right.

Ok.

A random fragment taken from my post and then responded to in a way that doesn't even make sense as a response to that isolated out of context fragment. Not sure what you hope to achieve here other than to cause bemusement.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

if a player is inexperienced and not interested in game mechanics, and they play a battlemaster anyway, they can just roll a superiority die every time they hit with an attack until they're out.

They could if they remembered the superiority dice.