D&D 5E Homebrewed Warlord take 2

[Garthanos]

*raise the die up to at least a d10

I mentioned that the need for a hit trigger (twice?) needed to have that impact.

 

[Undrave]

I love the structure and basic ideas of the class, first of all. I do have various concerns, however.

Battlefield Insight has too many "if, then" clauses required for it to do anything. I'd either

*make it so that you apply insight dice regardless of hit or miss, and/or make the dice only be spent if you hit (or the ally decides whether to use the dice after hitting)
or
*raise the die up to at least a d10

Remember that the rogue is dealing that damage, on top of a lot of other really strong abilities, simply by hitting at least once per turn. Your insight dice are...much less likely to get used, than the rogues sneak attack dice. One die step is a very small difference comparatively. At level 20, you're talking about a difference of ~10 damage, on average.
You also aren't as often actually adding that many dice to an individual round of damage dealing.

Alright, you and @Garthanos have convince me to move up to D10.

As for Battlefield Insight itself, how about

"Once per turn when you inflict damage to a creature, you can apply your Insight Dice to it. If the creature already has Insight Dice applied to it, they are replaced by yours. You apply a number of Insight Dice as shown in the Insight Dice collumn of the Warlord Table. At first level that is 1d10. An ally who inflicts damage to a creature with Insight Dice on it may choose to exploit the Insight, If they do so, they can add as many of the Insight Dice they choose to their damage, expending the dice. Insight Dice on a creature disappear at the start of your turn, if the creature drops to 0 hit points, or if you are incapacitated."

The only thing missing would be the part where you can expend an Insight Dice to gain advantage, but in turn it would offer Caster support.

Shouts and Signals are interesting. Why not have a clause that you can put Insight Dice on a target if they are targeted by an attack granted to an ally by you? Or perhaps just say, you can use Battlefield Insight on a target you can see within X feet whenever you take the Attack Action. That way, regardless of what you do with your Attack Action, you can be applying the core ability of the class. Especially since Signals require Insight Dice to even use.
Right now, Shouts and Signals work directly against eachother until level 5. That is really the main thing that would make me reluctant to play this class, as it is. I don't want my core class features to be mutually exclusive.

I kinda wanted the 'free Insight on any action' to be the Chosen One's thing. Plus, then it messes up with the balance of 'two attacks needed to do more than Sneak Attack damage' so it's either free Insight or higher dice.

I wanted to allow Shouts and Signals to not compete by adding 0 dice signals, but it's possible there's just not enough of them?

Heck, I even considered ditching Signals in their entirety at one point and jut have more shouts but I kinda like having Bonus Actions and I wasn't just what to replace them with as far as features go.

If the int requirement of Signals there for balance, or flavor? Because IRL a dog could probably be taught these things and in dnd said dog would have an int of 3 or something. Maybe require an extra hour per signal for int below 6? Or an animal handling check or the help of a character who the animal trusts and takes commands from?

It was mostly for flavor reason, but the dog thing is a good point... I think the simpliest would be int of 3.

Some of the signals, like pin the legs, are going to be confusing for a lot of players. Is the idea for the class to be "advanced", with a steeper learning curve than other 5e classes? If not, maybe it should just cost 1 die, halve their speed or deny them the ability to disengage, and allow you to spend more insight dice later on to hinder them further or continue the effect. Also, a lot of these should require a save. Without that, they're more powerful than a lot of battlemaster maneuvers.

Well it IS indeed supposed to be more advanced... But what I could do is take Pin the Legs and split the effects and make them two different basic signals so you basically 'upgrade' to the one that does both and then maybe add a clause in Coded Signals that let you replace signals when you level up so you can trade those in.

They do seem more powerful than Battlemaster Maneuvers, but they do require YOU to hit with an attack to put Insight Dice (all the condition ones require dice expenditure), then that your allies inflicts damage AND, unlike Battlemaster Maneuvers, they LOWER your maximum damage instead of increasing it because you trade Insight Dice to use them. So I think the saving throw is just replaced by the second attack. 'Strike the nerves' and 'Addle' are essentially a version of a 'called shot' system, for exemple.

I'm not sure the balance works out of allowing someone to draw and use an object as a reaction having no cost beyond your bonus action.

Hmm... what if it instead grants the ally the ability to use an item as a bonus action then? I was trying to find some 0 dice signals that you wouldn't use all the time.

Why No Synergy With Casters? I know this was an item of contention in my own marshal thread, but it just makes no sense to me that such a character would not no idea, unless utterly specialised in doing so, how to get more out of the spellcasters around them. Strike! could easily allow an extra spell attack that deals 1 of the same die of the same damage type if the ally casts a cantrip that requires an attack roll, for instance.
Or, a shout that simply increases the chance to hit and the damage of the ally's next attack, and don't specify attack action or weapon attack.

I wanted a bit more synergy with casters (the signals that inflict disadvantage on saves count in my eyes), especially in the signals, but it's just really REALLY wordy to try to include Spellcasters because: sometimes they attack, sometimes they ask for a saving throw; sometimes they inflict damage, sometimes they don't; sometimes they affect enemies, sometimes they affect allies; sometimes they use cantrips, sometimes they spend spell slots. Basically there's plenty of wording you need to consider and could cover. It gets really difficult so I could really use some help on that front.

The rest looks good, but I'm not as worried about anything above level 5 or 6 in a class.

Any comment on the flavour of the subclasses?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Alright, you and @Garthanos have convince me to move up to D10.

As for Battlefield Insight itself, how about

"Once per turn when you inflict damage to a creature, you can apply your Insight Dice to it. If the creature already has Insight Dice applied to it, they are replaced by yours. You apply a number of Insight Dice as shown in the Insight Dice collumn of the Warlord Table. At first level that is 1d10. An ally who inflicts damage to a creature with Insight Dice on it may choose to exploit the Insight, If they do so, they can add as many of the Insight Dice they choose to their damage, expending the dice. Insight Dice on a creature disappear at the start of your turn, if the creature drops to 0 hit points, or if you are incapacitated."

The only thing missing would be the part where you can expend an Insight Dice to gain advantage, but in turn it would offer Caster support.

I like that a lot more. “When an ally deals damage” is much more open, and let’s the class benefit pretty much any damage dealer on the team with their main feature.

I kinda wanted the 'free Insight on any action' to be the Chosen One's thing. Plus, then it messes up with the balance of 'two attacks needed to do more than Sneak Attack damage' so it's either free Insight or higher dice.

Good points, though I’m not sure it’s worth saving “your base class features synergies intuitively” for a subclass, if that makes sense.

I wanted to allow Shouts and Signals to not compete by adding 0 dice signals, but it's possible there's just not enough of them?

Heck, I even considered ditching Signals in their entirety at one point and jut have more shouts but I kinda like having Bonus Actions and I wasn't just what to replace them with as far as features go.

no signals are good. It’s mostly just the action economy of shouts and attacking, and not having to skip on using Shouts in order to get Insight Dice and use Signals, that bugs me.

What if one of the shouts allows using battlefield insight?
Or maybe Chosen One could use BI at the start of their turn?

It was mostly for flavor reason, but the dog thing is a good point... I think the simpliest would be int of 3.

Makes sense to me! I’d also love to see a warlord with a war dog and/or a cavalry captain type with a warhorse. But I really like pet subclasses.

Well it IS indeed supposed to be more advanced... But what I could do is take Pin the Legs and split the effects and make them two different basic signals so you basically 'upgrade' to the one that does both and then maybe add a clause in Coded Signals that let you replace signals when you level up so you can trade those in.

Upgrading works. What about scaling like cantrips?

They do seem more powerful than Battlemaster Maneuvers, but they do require YOU to hit with an attack to put Insight Dice (all the condition ones require dice expenditure), then that your allies inflicts damage AND, unlike Battlemaster Maneuvers, they LOWER your maximum damage instead of increasing it because you trade Insight Dice to use them. So I think the saving throw is just replaced by the second attack. 'Strike the nerves' and 'Addle' are essentially a version of a 'called shot' system, for exemple.

fair points, I just think some of those effects are...things that should allow saves. Idk.

Hmm... what if it instead grants the ally the ability to use an item as a bonus action then? I was trying to find some 0 dice signals that you wouldn't use all the time.

I guess I’m not sure what to compare 0 dice signals to. Honestly, I’d take a few 0 dice signals, and give them for free to all Warlords, and balance them around the rogues cunning action. Make the ones you choose from a list all cost a die.

I wanted a bit more synergy with casters (the signals that inflict disadvantage on saves count in my eyes), especially in the signals, but it's just really REALLY wordy to try to include Spellcasters because: sometimes they attack, sometimes they ask for a saving throw; sometimes they inflict damage, sometimes they don't; sometimes they affect enemies, sometimes they affect allies; sometimes they use cantrips, sometimes they spend spell slots. Basically there's plenty of wording you need to consider and could cover. It gets really difficult so I could really use some help on that front.



Any comment on the flavour of the subclasses?

More later. My beak is over

 

[Undrave]

no signals are good. It’s mostly just the action economy of shouts and attacking, and not having to skip on using Shouts in order to get Insight Dice and use Signals, that bugs me.

This thing is, I kinda like the trade off. Choosing which class feature to use is not unlike a spell caster picking which spell to use at a specific moment. It's a tactical choice.

fair points, I just think some of those effects are...things that should allow saves. Idk.

And in fairness I just remembered that Maneuvers are limited by Superiority Dice...

But the thing is that if a signal requires you to inflict damage, your ally to inflict damage AND THEN the enemy to succeed a saving throw, not only is that a lot of text for a simple effect, but it's a lot of points of failures and it gets unwieldy IMO.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This thing is, I kinda like the trade off. Choosing which class feature to use is not unlike a spell caster picking which spell to use at a specific moment. It's a tactical choice.

I respectfully disagree with the comparison. It is more like how the 4 elements monk gains a bunch of features that bar them from using their main stuff.

To be clear, I also don't think that the Eldritch Knight is a good gish unless you use SCAG cantrips. There is a difference between trade-offs, and features within a class working against eachother. It feels like in play, the two features would just feel like they are at cross purposes, which multiple good spells on your spell list don't.

And in fairness I just remembered that Maneuvers are limited by Superiority Dice...

But the thing is that if a signal requires you to inflict damage, your ally to inflict damage AND THEN the enemy to succeed a saving throw, not only is that a lot of text for a simple effect, but it's a lot of points of failures and it gets unwieldy IMO.

No moreso than any number of other effects that have a primary effect on a hit, and then the target makes a save against a secondary effect.
But that's also part of why I don't think signals should require you to deal damage, and your ally to deal damage. IMO, you should be able to put insight dice on a target regardless of whether you hit them, so the condition is a single check (the ally dealing damage) for the simpler signals, and some having a second check (save vs thing), coming in line with other 5e abilities.

 

[Undrave]

I respectfully disagree with the comparison. It is more like how the 4 elements monk gains a bunch of features that bar them from using their main stuff.

To be clear, I also don't think that the Eldritch Knight is a good gish unless you use SCAG cantrips. There is a difference between trade-offs, and features within a class working against eachother. It feels like in play, the two features would just feel like they are at cross purposes, which multiple good spells on your spell list don't.

Hmm... Maybe I could just ditch the dice requirement? I kinda like the feel of it spending your insight though.

No moreso than any number of other effects that have a primary effect on a hit, and then the target makes a save against a secondary effect.
But that's also part of why I don't think signals should require you to deal damage, and your ally to deal damage. IMO, you should be able to put insight dice on a target regardless of whether you hit them, so the condition is a single check (the ally dealing damage) for the simpler signals, and some having a second check (save vs thing), coming in line with other 5e abilities.

I see... Well if Insight Dice apply as soon as you take the Attack action then it becomes a strictly better version of Sneak Attack, which in turn means I should take it back down to a d6.

And I'd need a different capstone but that's secondary.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hmm... Maybe I could just ditch the dice requirement? I kinda like the feel of it spending your insight though.

I mean, if that is more appealing to you than ditching the requirement for the warlord to attack in order to get apply dice and finding something else to make the Chosen One unique, i'd say just ignore me on this.

I see... Well if Insight Dice apply as soon as you take the Attack action then it becomes a strictly better version of Sneak Attack, which in turn means I should take it back down to a d6.

And I'd need a different capstone but that's secondary.

Wait, i think i miscommunication something. The only way it could be better than sneak attack is if you applied the dice as damage immediately upon taking the attack action.

What I am saying is that using the dice should only require 1 success, not two. As part of the attack action, you place insight dice on a target. Then a check has to succeed to use the dice. Most uses of the dice don't use all the dice, and using them reduces the total damage dealt vs just using them all to deal damage. It also is limited vs sneak attack by virtue of being delayed and requiring a second character to do what you want in order for it to be used.

 

[Garthanos]

Pet Class : Squire Handler
LOL I mean Sensei or Master

 

[Undrave]

Wait, i think i miscommunication something. The only way it could be better than sneak attack is if you applied the dice as damage immediately upon taking the attack action.

What I am saying is that using the dice should only require 1 success, not two. As part of the attack action, you place insight dice on a target. Then a check has to succeed to use the dice. Most uses of the dice don't use all the dice, and using them reduces the total damage dealt vs just using them all to deal damage. It also is limited vs sneak attack by virtue of being delayed and requiring a second character to do what you want in order for it to be used.

Sure it's delayed, but it means the Walord basically grants the Sneak Attack feature to anyone, even a Rogue who already has it. And there's no position or advantage based limit on it. Everyone potentially has Sneak Attack anywhere on the battle field.

Hmm...

You certainly gave me stuff to think about for a V3....

 

[Garthanos]

Sure it's delayed, but it means the Walord basically grants the Sneak Attack feature to anyone, even a Rogue who already has it. And there's no position or advantage based limit on it.

An ally attacking the same enemy you attacked kind of creates a positional limit. A bravura warlord making himself vulnerable to do it is perhaps putting advantage limit on it. Just more food for thought