D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[DEFCON 1]

Looks like its time for everyone to just make their own rebalancing decision for their own game rather than try and convince everyone else to go along with it.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So you've all had almost two weeks, have you succeeded in doing what the thread title asked yet?

Create a Generic Fighter Mk2 Subclass?

Next project: The wheel.

 

[Garthanos]

Create a Generic Fighter Mk2 Subclass?

Next project: The wheel.

UA the brute?

 

[Umbran]

Looks like its time for everyone to just make their own rebalancing decision for their own game rather than try and convince everyone else to go along with it.

Mod Note:
Or, time to not bother so much about getting people to stop talking about a thing. "I told you so," doesn't make you look cool, or like you know more, you know.

Even if it is only trading ideas and getting insight for oneself about what might be called for, the discussion is cool. If you aren't into it, don't spend time trying to get others to stop. Just go find something you are interested, and engage in that.

 

[Xeviat]

UA the brute?

I'll go back and redigest the brute on the weekend.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I think the never-quite-finished weapon master was what the brute wanted to be. It's got the same damage math as the brute (which I think may be too high), in a more classic and appealing you-are-good-at-weapons package.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

UA the brute?

Okay, Generic Fighter Mk 3.

Or Mk 4 if you include the Samurai, which is also entirely generic apart from the name.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It's got the same damage math as the brute (which I think may be too high).

The Brute is a prime example of what I was saying earlier - it's bonus damage is too high because it requires no effort from the player in order to achieve. Whiteroom DPS alone does not lead to balanced characters, intangibles such as ease of use and synergies with feats must also be taken into account.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

The Brute is a prime example of what I was saying earlier - it's bonus damage is too high because it requires no effort from the player in order to achieve. Whiteroom DPS alone does not lead to balanced characters, intangibles such as ease of use and synergies with feats must also be taken into account.

Again: if you want, you can play the battlemaster with just as little effort, dumping your superiority dice on every hit. If anything, the "intangibles" argument works in favor of the brute: because you can put more effort into the battlemaster and get more mileage out of those dice, the whiteroom analysis undervalues the battlemaster, meaning on the other end of the balance beam the brute can have more raw damage.

Which is why I've been cagey in saying that the brute damage is overpowered. I've been saying that I think it might be, even taking these battlemaster intangibles into account, because no seriously guys that's a lot of damage. But it's hard to give a definitive yes-or-no answer to the question because the intangibles are, well, intangible.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Again: if you want, you can play the battlemaster with just as little effort, dumping your superiority dice on every hit.

Again: You are wrong.

Firstly "effort" come into your character's build. In order to "dump your superiority dice on every hit" you have to select at least one Manoeuvre that allows that. A Battlemaster with Commander's Strike, Disarming Attack and Evasive Footwork (to name the first three in the list that don't give a direct damage boost, there are many more) will have significantly lower average DPS than a Champion (although they might be contributing in other ways).

Secondly, it is the player's responsibility to remember to use consumable resource abilities. Whereas it is the DM's responsibility to inform a player if they have a critical hit.

Thirdly, in a long encounter day the BM who "dumps there superiority dice on every hit" will rapidly fall behind a Champion (how rapidly depends on choice of weapon). Most encounter days are not that long, but it's not "balance" if you design a character around an a priori assumption of short encounter days.