D&D 5E Need help on how to handle a huge fight

[Oofta]

When it comes to dragons - if you have a world where dragons are at least somewhat common I think it only makes sense that there will be countermeasures. It's one of the base assumptions of 5E that even dragons are not immune to mundane fighters.

Maybe the defenders have ballista on gimbals, perhaps with special chain link nets or similar. That doesn't mean the defenders don't need help with the dragons, just that in most cases dragons are not completely unstoppable without divine (or PC) intervention. Nearly all tactics of war have counters unless you're talking about world-shaking powers. In general dragons are incredibly dangerous but not unstoppable. If they were unstoppable it would be Dungeons and Dragons it would be Dragons and Slaves.

On the other hand if the normal crew is taken out, it might be a fun interlude to have to repair/man/fire the ballista to get the dragons down to where the PCs can actually fight them.

 

[Quartz]

Bounded Accuracy means that even the oldest dragons are toast against large numbers of archers. The dragon's breath weapon has a far shorter range than a bow.

 

[Hatox]

Yes, technically if you have about 200 archers, they should kill even an ancient dragon in about 1-2 turns, thats why the dragons brought backup...lots of backup^^

 

[dave2008]

Bounded Accuracy means that even the oldest dragons are toast against large numbers of archers. The dragon's breath weapon has a far shorter range than a bow.

I have started giving ancient and older dragons a damage threshold like a ship. That takes care of common archers, without nerfing the PCs. I also allow them to strafe: adding there movement to the range of their breath weapon (but not the width).

So an ancient red dragon has a damage threshold of 5 (b,p,s) and can have a breath range of 170 feet when flying (actually 240 ft. in may game as I give them a longer range and faster flying speed too).

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yes, technically if you have about 200 archers, they should kill even an ancient dragon in about 1-2 turns, thats why the dragons brought backup...lots of backup^^

Not really. Most of those archers will have to roll 17+ to hit your average ancient dragon, and likely have disadvantage due to frightful presence and/or distance (making the probability of hitting only 3.5%). The dragon can fly 80 ft with 90'+ breaths, so easily keep at longer range (the distance factor) in many rounds. Also, even on made saves the archers are dead and the area of effect of the breath will kill many. With roughly 400 HP, it will take nearly 100 successful hits. After the breath is over it can fly out of range until the breath recharges.

This isn't even considering possible spell use... and the morale checks those archers would likely fail.

A single ancient dragon would destroy 200 archers before even half its HP were gone.

FYI we are talking common "guard" archers, not the archer monster-type.

 

[dave2008]

With roughly 400 HP,...

Just a quick clarification: an Ancient Red Dragon has 546 HP.

 

[Oofta]

Not really. Most of those archers will have to roll 17+ to hit your average ancient dragon, and likely have disadvantage due to frightful presence and/or distance (making the probability of hitting only 3.5%). The dragon can fly 80 ft with 90'+ breaths, so easily keep at longer range (the distance factor) in many rounds. Also, even on made saves the archers are dead and the area of effect of the breath will kill many. With roughly 400 HP, it will take nearly 100 successful hits. After the breath is over it can fly out of range until the breath recharges.

This isn't even considering possible spell use... and the morale checks those archers would likely fail.

A single ancient dragon would destroy 200 archers before even half its HP were gone.

FYI we are talking common "guard" archers, not the archer monster-type.

I don't disagree, but the short range for an archer is 150, the dragon's fear aura is 120. May not make a huge difference and it depends on how prepared the defenses are but that first (readied) volley could do quite a bit of damage.

A lot of it depends on campaign. Even adult dragons are not exactly a dime-a-dozen in my campaign, there are probably only 2-3 ancient dragons (if that) of each color in my entire campaign world. There are old dragons, there are bold dragons, there are no old, bold dragons.

So in my campaign they wouldn't fight fair. Think acting as high altitude bombers, having someone turn them invisible if they can't do it themselves or having multiple illusory dragons. They would only attack if they were pretty darn sure of victory and had a practically guaranteed escape route. Again, depends on campaign and what's going to be fun.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Just a quick clarification: an Ancient Red Dragon has 546 HP.

Sure, but I don't know its red. Other ancient dragons have much fewer, so I was going on the lower end to play it safe. The ancient red has AC 24, meaning a nat 20 would be needed to hit (throw in disadvantage, and only 1 in 400 arrows would even hit). So, I assumed a more modest AC 21.

 

[Weiley31]

Don't forget that during the cutscene where the dragon is first introduced, it wipes put half the archers while the rest ran away in fear or they made a tactical judgment that it was not the best moment to fight that dragon....only for the SECOND dragon to come dive bombing in and taking out another score of archers.

The Dread Commando NPC probably stayed behind but stealths it to better plan an approach to the dragons.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I don't disagree, but the short range for an archer is 150, the dragon's fear aura is 120. May not make a huge difference and it depends on how prepared the defenses are but that first (readied) volley could do quite a bit of damage.

A lot of it depends on campaign. Even adult dragons are not exactly a dime-a-dozen in my campaign, there are probably only 2-3 ancient dragons (if that) of each color in my entire campaign world. There are old dragons, there are bold dragons, there are no old, bold dragons.

So in my campaign they wouldn't fight fair. Think acting as high altitude bombers, having someone turn them invisible if they can't do it themselves or having multiple illusory dragons. They would only attack if they were pretty darn sure of victory and had a practically guaranteed escape route. Again, depends on campaign and what's going to be fun.

Agree completely. We don't have dragons as that common at either at our table.

While the normal range is 150, due the the dragon's movement it can move in 40 feet, breath on some at least, invoke fear, and then pull back. Remember, when frightened the creature cannot move closer, so those afraid could not move into normal range.

BA is good for making hordes a factor, but I did the math once again an ancient red and it was somewhere closer to 2000! to defeat it, not 200-400. Of course tons depends on groupings, tactics, terrain, weather, etc. Make the attack at night, and suddenly nearly every bowshot is with disadvantage if there is not a VERY bright moon out.