• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Is 5e "Easy Mode?"

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Thank you. This is one thing that some people keep missing. In the context being discussed (a game) the term easy mode is and so essentially means not fun or not real D&D like in the old days.
That really isn't correct and it seems like you are biasing your response by taking it personally (I could be wrong, tone is a difficult thing on message boards).

Anyway, some people like easy games, some people like harder games. Both can be fun and challenging in their own ways. If someone is claiming a game has to be harder to be fun, I hope they are implying that is true for them and not as a universal qualifier.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
That is a great idea, and if it's compelling people will flock to it, because a lot of people want a game that combines 5e's robust balance and solid design with heightened lethality and other old school elements.

That said, I don't think 5e is "easy mode" so much as it's built on a different framework of design. Old school dnd is built to kill the PCs, unless the DM runs the game otherwise. By kill I really mean challenge, but the game doesn't care if you are the right level to fight an owlbear, it just cares if there is an owlbear where you wound up, and if you managed to avoid fighting it somehow or not.

5e, on the other hand, puts much more of that transparently and straightforwardly in the hands of the DM. The DM decides how deadly every fight is, how terrifying powerful casters are, how crippling bad luck while journeying to the adventure site is, etc.

The point is, 5e is built to allow a group to choose it's difficulty, and trust me RAW 5e can absolutely be grueling and scary and lethal, rather than simply building the game to have a high difficulty out of the box.

I'm happy to share, and have quite a few times. PM me if you'd like.

The problem right now is that it's morphed into something a bit different. Especially magic/spellcasting since we were looking for something quite different. So I've really got to fork the design at an earlier point in the design. We also have a different class system too. Each has some defining features, and everything else is chosen by the player as you progress, with far fewer super-heroic options (although those would be easy to add). I'm not a fan of dozens of classes and archetypes, other than helpful pointers on how to mix things together to your liking. So we have three base classes, Expert, Spellcaster, and Warrior, which are based on their historical focus (although as I noted in the original post, in AD&D clerics were better at combat than rogues (theives). In our case, the idea is that it takes a lot more time to learn spellcasting, so they are the worst at combat, experts are better, but primarily have the most skills, and warriors are the best fighters (which was lost in 5e with the use of the proficiency bonus, since every class at a given level has the same chance to-hit provided equal ability scores).

Like AD&D, I'm not concerned with whether there are "trap" features or unbalanced things. If you have a group that doesn't like role-playing and character (as in personality) development, then you just don't use the skills/feats that speak to that.

The adventuring/combat/equipment/skills portions are the easiest to drop into an existing campaign right now.

The general feel that we're looking for is based around the classic definition of heroic - an ordinary person doing extraordinary things. @Minigiant expressed that in a different way in this post above.

I'm not sure I'd say Old School is built to kill PCs, rather than to encourage other solutions to problems than a straight frontal attack for every encounter. We tend to stay at 4th level (low level campaign) or 8th level (high level campaign) for years. We want the overall challenge (not necessarily every encounter) to be beyond the capability of the PCs. That is, they can't just fight, rest, fight, rest. They have to play, come up with creative solutions, look for ways to avoid the danger rather than taking it head on, enlist help, etc.

Death really has never been a common thing in our campaigns, in part because resurrection magic was always largely unavailable in our campaigns. So if you wanted to keep using a PC, you have to keep them from dying. Probably one of the main reasons we misread the DMG 0-hit point rule (although it seems to me that if the rule was written for exactly 0 hit points, it should have just said, "if a character is reduced to exactly 0 hit points...")

Regardless, I'm glad we interpreted it the way we did. Because it added a lot to our game. Trying to avoid being killed, combined with real, in-story consequences.

To us it still feels like D&D, or at least what we thing D&D should feel like. I've shared it with a number of people inside and outside of my groups. I either get feedback that says it's amazing and it's how they play now or no feedback at all.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Let's see "childish", "shoots and ladders", "training wheels", ... what other variants of calling something "easy mode" can we come up with sorry there is nothing neutral about it.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
That really isn't correct and it seems like you are biasing your response by taking it personally (I could be wrong, tone is a difficult thing on message boards).

Anyway, some people like easy games, some people like harder games. Both can be fun and challenging in their own ways. If someone is claiming a game has to be harder to be fun, I hope they are implying that is true for them and not as a universal qualifier.

No, it's a pejorative.

It's like if you called old editions and OSR, grim grindfest.

It's that's why many games don't use easy mode anymore. They use Story Mode, Adventure Mode, Action Mode, and Hardcore More. Because different players want different things.
 


DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Let's see "childish", "shoots and ladders", "training wheels", ... what other variants of calling something "easy mode" can we come up with sorry there is nothing neutral about it.
Then you are taking it personally.

Easy games (which can be quite challenging in some ways) also include checkers, blackjack, and many others. Many gambling games (like slot machines) are easy, but people have fun with such games ALL the time.

I enjoy a lot of the games I've mentioned. And that doesn't bother me at all. I know they are easy compared to other games I could play.

No, it's a pejorative.

{snip}

If you find it so, you are also taking it personally. If you feel like you are playing an easy game and that is somehow bad or makes you feel insulted, you should try to be objective about it.

I see it as completely neutral and non-insulting. I can't help it if you feel that way. If you do, I am sorry for it.
 

Oofta

Legend
That really isn't correct and it seems like you are biasing your response by taking it personally (I could be wrong, tone is a difficult thing on message boards).

Anyway, some people like easy games, some people like harder games. Both can be fun and challenging in their own ways. If someone is claiming a game has to be harder to be fun, I hope they are implying that is true for them and not as a universal qualifier.
Who says 5E is easy? It can be. It can also be as deadly as I want. It just puts the intent to be deadly more in the hands of the DM. Any time a PC is at 0 in 5E they're just two hits from dead. Revivify is great, but it's easy enough to block access to the body. Raise dead has always brought back PCs. Want to kill PCs in 5E? Double tap. Throw more monsters. Run monsters intelligently. Don't have 15 minute work days.

I frequently find myself pulling back on difficulty because my players don't want a super deadly game. In older editions of the game I had players with similar preferences and we added in a bunch of house rules and I avoided whole categories of monsters to make dying accidentally less likely.

How deadly you want a game to be is a group preference.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
It is pejorative... for one and obviously so when applied to a game.

I certainly wasn't intending to be perjorative in my original post, and is why I put it in quotes. Although the reality is that I don't think it's "easy mode" at all.

If I were to apply any sort of actual descriptor to differentiate, it's usually that I feel 5e is more super-heroic than heroic. That the PCs are specifically intended to be "a cut above" and have abilities that the normal person doesn't, and be able to do things that others can't. Where AD&D to me takes the more classic definition of "an ordinary person doing extraordinary things" with the exception of high-level spellcasters. But that fits that lower-power approach well because it basically carves out unusual power as being limited to magic.

There's a lot else besides just the power curve that makes them different. And I frequently point out that I think the 5e design is brilliant, and exactly what they should have done as proven by the sales and popularity of the game. For a mass market game it's near perfect. For the folks like us that will debate such things, perhaps not so much. But it would sell much, much less. Plus I think that enthusiasts like us all have very unique games and I'm not sure we'd find one approach we'd all agree with anyway. Which is why I think D&D is the best game because it's so easy for each group to make it their own.
 

Sadras

Legend
Garthanos said:
It is perjorative... for one and obviously so when applied to a game.
Thank you. This is one thing that some people keep missing. In the context being discussed (a game) the term easy mode is and so essentially means not fun or not real D&D like in the old days.

Ok fair enough I can see how some may use this to hammer the edition the same way we had D&D and AD&D.

When I classify 5e as easy mode it unequivically is not there to bash the edition.
I'm looking at success rates of characters (which this thread originally focussed on), PC abilities/power, deadliness, learning the rules and even DMing - in comparison to other editions.

I'm not looking to evaluate fun or popularity of the game.
Raw 5e I firmly believe begins PURPOSEFULLY from an easy base. If you do not believe me then attempt to answer this honestly. Why were feats optional?

Think of 5e as D&D (BECMI) with the ability to make it Advanced D&D = complex, more nuanced, more lethal and more tactical (somewhat).
 


Remove ads

Top