Surprising the GM, or, Random Content in Dungeons

[ninjayeti]

I've had good results using random generators as part of prep rather than on the fly. As @Reynard states, they are a great way to break out of a creative rut. When I find myself creating yet another goblin cave or tomb full of undead I have turned to random tables to come up with some fresh ideas (the ones in Ch 3-5 of the DMG are pretty solid).

By randomizing as part of prep, I can use the tables as source of inspiration rather than a straitjacket. Sometimes the random generators are going to spit out a meatball sundae - something that is not going to work no matter what. Other times you get some good and some bad, so it is helpful to have a chance to build on what works and get rid of what doesn't. I'd agree with @Ralif Redhammer that random generation is best mixed with a healthy amount of "intelligent design."

I'd also say random generation works best when the players don't know its random. Let the PCs find an ivory statue of a monkey holding a crown and they will invest a lot of energy trying to glean its significance (sometimes coming up with good ideas for the DM to run with). If they know its a statue of an [animal] made of [material] holding an [object] they will blow by it without a second thought.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I think it's best to have some planned and some random elements. Too much of one or the other and it starts to feel like the PCs are just along for the ride. I routinely include sections in my adventures that I have no idea what's going to happen or how the PCs are going to solve it. And when I'm in a pinch for ideas, I will absolutely grab a book with some random tables and use it in the middle of a session.

One of my favorite DMing stories from the old days was when 2e was still in the progress of coming out. We had the 2e PHB, but the rest was still 1e. I decided to run a completely random dungeon crawl with the 1e DMG's appendix A (I think). It ended with a memorable encounter with a lich that ended up being a recurring foe for the campaign.

The experience made me feel in a lot of ways like I was a player alongside them. I did not know what was coming next, and only had scant seconds from dice roll to implementation to come up with something.

I 100% agree, I think you want a mix of planned and random material. It simply more fun for everybody at the table.

 

[Asisreo]

I've had good results using random generators as part of prep rather than on the fly. As @Reynard states, they are a great way to break out of a creative rut. When I find myself creating yet another goblin cave or tomb full of undead I have turned to random tables to come up with some fresh ideas (the ones in Ch 3-5 of the DMG are pretty solid).

By randomizing as part of prep, I can use the tables as source of inspiration rather than a straitjacket. Sometimes the random generators are going to spit out a meatball sundae - something that is not going to work no matter what. Other times you get some good and some bad, so it is helpful to have a chance to build on what works and get rid of what doesn't. I'd agree with @Ralif Redhammer that random generation is best mixed with a healthy amount of "intelligent design."

I'd also say random generation works best when the players don't know its random. Let the PCs find an ivory statue of a monkey holding a crown and they will invest a lot of energy trying to glean its significance (sometimes coming up with good ideas for the DM to run with). If they know its a statue of an [animal] made of [material] holding an [object] they will blow by it without a second thought.

I'm glad someone acknowledged the tables as more than just something they're too good to need. I don't think I need it either, but all the tables have helped far more than I even want to give credit to. Before, I was thinking that I can create every detail of every room from my mind until my players said "Man, there's never anything but monsters, traps, and treasures in these rooms." And I realized that I skipped over parts of descriptions that would've added to a more immersive experience. Now, I can quickly and assuredly describe the air, sound, furniture, random molding and everything else that makes my locations seem alive.

Sometimes they don't match up, true, but it's fun coming up with reasons why there's a room with random mushrooms in desert temple (secret underground water pool?) But if it just makes no sense, I can always roll again or just choose.

 

[the Jester]

Lend me your experience! I want to put some random generators in a game module. I know they've been around for a while - I still have the loose-leaf random monster encounter tables from AD&D 2e. But have you seen or used a random dungeon generator? Would you run a dungeon crawl without knowing what's in the dungeon?

Yeah, I have used the random dungeon generator from the 1e DMG in 1e, 2e, and 3e. I've also used several other random dungeon generators. I have both used them on the fly and used them to generate a dungeon, or sections of one, in advance of play.

One thing to bear in mind is that, if you're randomly generating monsters from a large list, you are almost certain to end up with a funhouse style dungeon that may not make a lot of sense unless you impose some sort of story-based justification for the weird mixes you get.

What if a GM's role changes from planning out encounters to challenge PCs, to rationalizing unknown elements in a dungeon and attempting to keep the party alive in a plausible way?

The DM's role should never, in my opinion, involve attempting to keep the party alive. It should involve using appropriate challenges (by which I certainly don't mean always level-appropriate) and fairly adjudicating those challenges. But that's a playstyle choice.

Regardless, I think what you describe is part of the traditional DM role already, but only a part of it. But when you throw in a dominating role for random tables, you're moving towards a playstyle that's pretty far to the sandbox side of the sandbox-to-story based game spectrum. So the various DM skills and techniques that are useful to sandbox play really come into play. You'd probably want to focus on your ability to think on the fly for things like the motivations of and relationships between npcs and monsters, though 5e's DMG has tons of charts that can aid in randomizing all that kind of stuff. Even so, you still need to be able to think through what's going on and how it relates quickly and on the fly, and to follow the pcs where they lead as far as when they try to negotiate or bypass vs. engage in combat (even when the other party to the negotiations seems like a weird choice, such as parleying with manticores).

Let's hear your good, bad, and ugly stories about random generators and GM surprises!

I'm not saying I'm a random table addict, just that I really love them. I prefer to randomize a great deal in my game. I'm also a fan of chaos effects, like things where you stick your hand in the weird frog and get a strange, random effect; I have a d1000 Chaos chart with like 30 subtables that might come up.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

With a John Carpenter-penned soundtrack, definitely.

Too much "nothing happens" is bad, but some "nothing happens" is just enough to be scary. And I have to say, the corridor-that-goes-on-forever sounds pretty cool, in a weird '80s movie sort of way.

 

[GMMichael]

Sometimes the random generators are going to spit out a meatball sundae - something that is not going to work no matter what. Other times you get some good and some bad, so it is helpful to have a chance to build on what works and get rid of what doesn't. I'd agree with @Ralif Redhammer that random generation is best mixed with a healthy amount of "intelligent design."

I'd also say random generation works best when the players don't know its random. Let the PCs find an ivory statue of a monkey holding a crown and they will invest a lot of energy trying to glean its significance (sometimes coming up with good ideas for the DM to run with). If they know its a statue of an [animal] made of [material] holding an [object] they will blow by it without a second thought.

I'd take away an XP from you if I could, as payback for putting the idea of a meatball sundae in my head.

I wonder if the possibility, itself, that the GM is mixing random gen. with intelligent design is enough to get players to investigate the ivory monkey. If not, the fact that it could be a magic item is; players love that stuff. Of course, if the players ignore it and move on, you could always make it grow to its full-golem-size and attack from behind

Sometimes they don't match up, true, but it's fun coming up with reasons why there's a room with random mushrooms in desert temple (secret underground water pool?) But if it just makes no sense, I can always roll again or just choose.

That's the fun I'm interested in. It's a little taste of on-the-fly chaos from behind the screen, instead of the usual flow from the front of it. But what if it's full-flavored, like a meatball sundae? What if the next dungeon room could be a pit into Hel? Then the GM's stakes are much higher: the equivalent of being a PC and watching your character die. The GM's game is about to die, if he doesn't find a valid way for the PCs to negotiate the situation.

Now, the PCs, of course, will help shape that outcome through their decisions. But the GM has to make it flow. If Megatron (yeah, it was a really unlikely set of rolls) doesn't immediately try to disintegrate them with his scope (yes, that's actually what it was), he'd better have an interesting reason for doing so. Or, if he just starts shooting, it has to feel Hel-and-Megatron deadly to the players, even if the GM is actually pulling punches.

The DM's role should never, in my opinion, involve attempting to keep the party alive. It should involve using appropriate challenges (by which I certainly don't mean always level-appropriate) and fairly adjudicating those challenges. But that's a playstyle choice.

Regardless, I think what you describe is part of the traditional DM role already, but only a part of it. But when you throw in a dominating role for random tables, you're moving towards a playstyle that's pretty far to the sandbox side of the sandbox-to-story based game spectrum. So the various DM skills and techniques that are useful to sandbox play really come into play. You'd probably want to focus on your ability to think on the fly for things like the motivations of and relationships between npcs and monsters. . .

I'm not saying I'm a random table addict, just that I really love them. I prefer to randomize a great deal in my game. I'm also a fan of chaos effects, like things where you stick your hand in the weird frog and get a strange, random effect; I have a d1000 Chaos chart with like 30 subtables that might come up.

Never? "Appropriate" and "fairly" must have a pretty interesting connotation if it doesn't include keeping the party alive. Note that "party" does not protect individuals

Thanks for mentioning the sandbox. You just reinforced my marketing approach on this. But more to the point, isn't it weird how applying random generators - effectively filling in the blanks for the GM - requires more skill from the GM? Or is it just different skills?

Yeah, I think random generators can be awesome too. I guess it just struck me as odd that D&D would give you all the random monsters you (or the weird frog with your hand in it) could swallow, but not the random dungeons to go with them.

 

[atanakar]

Yeah, I think random generators can be awesome too. I guess it just struck me as odd that D&D would give you all the random monsters you (or the weird frog with your hand in it) could swallow, but not the random dungeons to go with them.

They want to sell adventure paths.

 

[the Jester]

Never? "Appropriate" and "fairly" must have a pretty interesting connotation if it doesn't include keeping the party alive. Note that "party" does not protect individuals

In my preferred playstyle, it's entirely the party's job to keep themselves alive. The DM's role is to set up interesting challenges, with enough telegraphing of the difficulty that the players can ascertain when they're about to bite off more than they can chew. But if they take that bite, the DM's job is not to pull the half-eaten challenge from their collective mouth in order to prevent heartburn.

Thanks for mentioning the sandbox. You just reinforced my marketing approach on this. But more to the point, isn't it weird how applying random generators - effectively filling in the blanks for the GM - requires more skill from the GM? Or is it just different skills?

I'd say different. You don't need the same level of story-writing, npc-motivation-building, intricate tale-weaving, etc skills if you're going with heavy random generation- you need similar skills, but I do think they're different.

Yeah, I think random generators can be awesome too. I guess it just struck me as odd that D&D would give you all the random monsters you (or the weird frog with your hand in it) could swallow, but not the random dungeons to go with them.

I am pretty sure that most versions of the DMG have random dungeon generators in them- or at least the DMGs from odd-numbered editions do.

 

[Bohandas]

Yeah, I think random generators can be awesome too. I guess it just struck me as odd that D&D would give you all the random monsters you (or the weird frog with your hand in it) could swallow, but not the random dungeons to go with them.

There's a random dungeon generator in the Dragon Magazine Compendium (and presumably also in whichever issue of Dragon that it's from)

Also, the D&D Adventure Games are all random dungeons. (And you could probably adapt them to play full D&D pretty easily; just use real character and monster stats instead of the Adventure Game's simplified stats)

 

[Asisreo]

There's a random dungeon generator in the Dragon Magazine Compendium (and presumably also in whichever issue of Dragon that it's from)

Also, the D&D Adventure Games are all random dungeons. (And you could probably adapt them to play full D&D pretty easily; just use real character and monster stats instead of the Adventure Game's simplified stats)

I'm fairly sure appendix A of the DMG also serves as a random dungeon generator. It does leave much to be desired, though.