Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Maxperson]

Because they help me by looking at things duh. I'm not quite sure what makes it so hard to understand?

So a guy 1000 yards away looking at the same things helps you look at things?

And it's hard to understand because it's poppycock. You are already going to be looking at all those same things. He's not helping you by distracting you from your job of looking. He's more likely to hinder you and cause you to look away from where the rabbit will briefly be than to help you see the rabbit.

You: (scanning the area looking for a rabbit)
Buddy: "Look, a log over to the left!"
You: "Yep! It's a log!"
(rabbit briefly walks between two bushes to the right unseen by either of you because you are looking at a log)
You: (scanning the area looking for a rabbit)
Buddy: "Look! it's a tree! to the left next to the log!"

He's not helping you do anything you couldn't do on your own. There's no improvement to your vision or ability happening.

 

[GobHag]

So a guy 1000 yards away looking at the same things helps you look at things?

And it's hard to understand because it's poppycock. You are already going to be looking at all those same things. He's not helping you by distracting you from your job of looking. He's more likely to hinder you and cause you to look away from where the rabbit will briefly be than to help you see the rabbit.

You: (scanning the area looking for a rabbit)
Buddy: "Look, a log over to the left!"
You: "Yep! It's a log!"
(rabbit briefly walks between two bushes to the right unseen by either of you because you are looking at a log)
You: (scanning the area looking for a rabbit)
Buddy: "Look! it's a tree! to the left next to the log!"

He's not helping you do anything you couldn't do on your own. There's no improvement to your vision or ability happening.

Yes it does, if we can communicate.

Then I guess search parties are a terrible idea in the real world. Ergo, yes you can give advantage on perception checks.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes it does, if we can communicate.

Then I guess search parties are a terrible idea in the real world. Ergo, yes you can give advantage on perception checks.

I think the argument is that all those people searching are making their own Wisdom (Perception) checks independently, not actually helping each other. So technically @Maxperson is correct. However, I could see abstracting multiple people searching into the Help action, since one can imagine different people looking in different parts of the search area for efficiency sake.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes it does, if we can communicate.

Then I guess search parties are a terrible idea in the real world. Ergo, yes you can give advantage on perception checks.

Communicate what? That you don't see anything? That you see nothing? What you communicate doesn't let you see a rabbit that neither of you see. Now if he already sees the rabbit he can help you see it, but if neither of you see it he can't help you find it, because he doesn't know where it is.

And good grief! Search parties work because there are a bunch of people all searching different areas rolling individual search checks! 10x the people = searching 10x the area as quickly as 1 person. 1 guy isn't the only one searching with 9 guys helping him out!

Ergo, you don't know how searching works.

 

[Maxperson]

I think the argument is that all those people searching are making their own Wisdom (Perception) checks independently, not actually helping each other. So technically @Maxperson is correct. However, I could see abstracting multiple people searching into the Help action, since one can imagine different people looking in different parts of the search area for efficiency sake.

The abstraction falls apart because the one guy with the best perception isn't looking in the spots that the other 9 guys are, so couldn't possibly see the target even with advantage. It's a silly abstraction because there's nothing to support it being functional.

 

[GobHag]

The abstraction falls apart because the one guy with the best perception isn't looking in the spots that the other 9 guys are, so couldn't possibly see the target even with advantage. It's a silly abstraction because there's nothing to support it being functional.

Yeah it does. Multiple people helps finds stuff, ergo. You can help with seeing things

 

[GobHag]

Communicate what? That you don't see anything? That you see nothing? What you communicate doesn't let you see a rabbit that neither of you see. Now if he already sees the rabbit he can help you see it, but if neither of you see it he can't help you find it, because he doesn't know where it is.

And good grief! Search parties work because there are a bunch of people all searching different areas rolling individual search checks! 10x the people = searching 10x the area as quickly as 1 person. 1 guy isn't the only one searching with 9 guys helping him out!

Ergo, you don't know how searching works.

Or I can give them advantage.

I'm not understanding why you don't understand this though? So weird

 

[Bill Zebub]

Even though I still think it's weird that two characters working together see better than one, but three, four, or five characters working together don't claim any better results, lol.

In my mind it belongs in the same category as, "Can I roll, too?"

There's no intrinsic cost/risk in rolling, so everybody wants to try. But letting them do so would both bog the game down, and eventually somebody would succeed. Which isn't a problem (there's a chance to have the information, so it must be ok for the information to be had) but also is a problem (why gate something behind dice if you're going to vastly inflate the chances of succeeding).

So we compensate by artificially limiting who can roll.

:-/

 

[Maxperson]

Or I can give them advantage.

I'm not understanding why you don't understand this though? So weird

I don't understand your argument that some guy over there searching by himself somehow helps you with advantage just because you are both searching and you want advantage.

That kind of independent help is his own independent roll. He doesn't suddenly become an invalid who can't find anything just because you want to do better.

Two people searching is better because twice the eyes getting twice the rolls, not because you are somehow using his eyes as your own. He isn't helping you do better. He is helping you out by also searching and getting a roll.

And yes, I agree that the argument that you get to use his eyes as your own is weird.

To get an idea of the help another process. Let's say you want to build a raft and need help. It would be hard for you to position the logs all by yourself, so the bard grabs one end and makes it easier(advantage) for you to build the raft. He is helping you at your direction to build the raft.

Perception doesn't work that way. Neither of you is direction the other. There is no interactive help going on.

 

[GobHag]

I don't understand your argument that some guy over there searching by himself somehow helps you with advantage just because you are both searching and you want advantage.

That kind of independent help is his own independent roll. He doesn't suddenly become an invalid who can't find anything just because you want to do better.

Two people searching is better because twice the eyes getting twice the rolls, not because you are somehow using his eyes as your own. He isn't helping you do better. He is helping you out by also searching and getting a roll.

And yes, I agree that the argument that you get to use his eyes as your own is weird.

To get an idea of the help another process. Let's say you want to build a raft and need help. It would be hard for you to position the logs all by yourself, so the bard grabs one end and makes it easier(advantage) for you to build the raft. He is helping you at your direction to build the raft.

Perception doesn't work that way. Neither of you is direction the other. There is no interactive help going on.

There is interactive help though? So weird that you don't understand that having someone around does help in trying to look or find something.