Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[James Gasik]

There is interactive help though? So weird that you don't understand that having someone around does help in trying to look or find something.

It's like this. If I'm searching for a hidden enemy, I make a Perception check. If another character searches for a hidden enemy, they make a Perception check. The odds are better of finding the enemy because we are both rolling.

But instead, we have this scenario where one character IS NOT SEARCHING, because they are not taking an action to actively search, and is instead improving the odds of another character making a successful roll. All the second character is doing is using their regular old passive Perception (which we have to assume isn't good enough to find the enemy) and instead of actively looking, is somehow guiding the other character to see something they could not see.

I mean, it's like if, during the Fellowship of the Ring, instead of Strider saying "Legolas, what do your Elven eye see?", he announces "Even though I cannot make out anything with my inferior human eyes, I'm going to look in the same direction to give Legolas advantage."

Because, in this scenario, what if the one person succeeds due to the advantage? Now they see the target, but the person who is helping them does not. What they are looking for is still as invisible to them as it was when they declared they were assisting!

It doesn't make logical sense to some people, so irregardless of the RAW, they wouldn't allow it. Which is a legitimate way to play the game, just as always going by the rules even when they make no sense is also legitimate.

*Just to reiterate, I'm slightly on the fence here. It doesn't make much sense to me either, personally, but I wouldn't stop my players from doing it, if they so chose. After all, they take just as much risk by taking point as the designated scout, and are actually in more danger, if their passive Perception is lower, by possibly being surprised by enemies, falling into a trap, and so on. In fact, in my current game, the Cleric has the best Perception in the party, thanks to his Sentinel Shield, but the party refuses to let him take point, instead keeping him safely protected in the back line.

 

[Mannahnin]

It's like this. If I'm searching for a hidden enemy, I make a Perception check. If another character searches for a hidden enemy, they make a Perception check. The odds are better of finding the enemy because we are both rolling.

But instead, we have this scenario where one character IS NOT SEARCHING, because they are not taking an action to actively search, and is instead improving the odds of another character making a successful roll. All the second character is doing is using their regular old passive Perception (which we have to assume isn't good enough to find the enemy) and instead of actively looking, is somehow guiding the other character to see something they could not see.

I mean, it's like if, during the Fellowship of the Ring, instead of Strider saying "Legolas, what do your Elven eye see?", he announces "Even though I cannot make out anything with my inferior human eyes, I'm going to look in the same direction to give Legolas advantage."

Because, in this scenario, what if the one person succeeds due to the advantage? Now they see the target, but the person who is helping them does not. What they are looking for is still as invisible to them as it was when they declared they were assisting!

It doesn't make logical sense to some people, so irregardless of the RAW, they wouldn't allow it. Which is a legitimate way to play the game, just as always going by the rules even when they make no sense is also legitimate.

*Just to reiterate, I'm slightly on the fence here. It doesn't make much sense to me either, personally, but I wouldn't stop my players from doing it, if they so chose. After all, they take just as much risk by taking point as the designated scout, and are actually in more danger, if their passive Perception is lower, by possibly being surprised by enemies, falling into a trap, and so on. In fact, in my current game, the Cleric has the best Perception in the party, thanks to his Sentinel Shield, but the party refuses to let him take point, instead keeping him safely protected in the back line.

Great post. Bold added.

I agree that people team up to search for things all the time, but realistically, that's actually by increasing the number of people looking.

I think your observation about the absurd conclusion sums up folks' incredulity well.

 

[Maxperson]

It's like this. If I'm searching for a hidden enemy, I make a Perception check. If another character searches for a hidden enemy, they make a Perception check. The odds are better of finding the enemy because we are both rolling.

But instead, we have this scenario where one character IS NOT SEARCHING, because they are not taking an action to actively search, and is instead improving the odds of another character making a successful roll. All the second character is doing is using their regular old passive Perception (which we have to assume isn't good enough to find the enemy) and instead of actively looking, is somehow guiding the other character to see something they could not see.

I mean, it's like if, during the Fellowship of the Ring, instead of Strider saying "Legolas, what do your Elven eye see?", he announces "Even though I cannot make out anything with my inferior human eyes, I'm going to look in the same direction to give Legolas advantage."

Because, in this scenario, what if the one person succeeds due to the advantage? Now they see the target, but the person who is helping them does not. What they are looking for is still as invisible to them as it was when they declared they were assisting!

It doesn't make logical sense to some people, so irregardless of the RAW, they wouldn't allow it. Which is a legitimate way to play the game, just as always going by the rules even when they make no sense is also legitimate.

*Just to reiterate, I'm slightly on the fence here. It doesn't make much sense to me either, personally, but I wouldn't stop my players from doing it, if they so chose. After all, they take just as much risk by taking point as the designated scout, and are actually in more danger, if their passive Perception is lower, by possibly being surprised by enemies, falling into a trap, and so on. In fact, in my current game, the Cleric has the best Perception in the party, thanks to his Sentinel Shield, but the party refuses to let him take point, instead keeping him safely protected in the back line.

RAW doesn't allow it, though. RAW requires it be something that Aragorn could actually help with in order to grant advantage, which as you note he cannot help Legolas in thr above situation.

My position isn't regardless of RAW. My position is RAW.

 

[payn]

RAW doesn't allow it, though. RAW requires it be something that Aragorn could actually help with in order to grant advantage, which as you note he cannot help Legolas in thr above situation.

My position isn't regardless of RAW. My position is RAW.

I'd say the problem with this is you could make anything seem appropriate or not appropriate if you truly want to argue it. Maybe the keen elven eyes spot the hidden foe after Strider hears something to the right and tells legolas to look that direction.

 

[Maxperson]

I'd say the problem with this is you could make anything seem appropriate or not appropriate if you truly want to argue it. Maybe the keen elven eyes spot the hidden foe after Strider hears something to the right and tells legolas to look that direction.

Those horses are several miles away. He isn't hearing, smelling, feeling or tasting anything to help legolas out.


Edit: and again, the entire context of this discussion is the visual only penalty to perception. No other senses are in use for that.

 

[payn]

Those horses are several miles away. He isn't hearing, smelling, feeling or tasting anything to help legolas out.

Perhaps then he is intuiting where horses would be based on the terrain type. Point is you can play this game all day long.

 

[Maxperson]

Perhaps then he is intuiting where horses would be based on the terrain type. Point is you can play this game all day long.

He wasn't doing that, either. They had very high ground looking out over a flat plain and see dust at the far end of that vision. There is nothing but sight going on.

And look at my edit of my last post. Nothing else is in play.

 

[Reynard]

Every once in a while, an argument on EN World goes so far off the rails it becomes Art.

 

[payn]

He wasn't doing that, either. They had very high ground looking out over a flat plain and see dust at the far end of that vision. There is nothing but sight going on.

And look at my edit of my last post. Nothing else is in play.

This is a good example why using a fictional piece is bad in a mechanical game fictional piece. If aiding one another is a function, then it ought to be possible the whys are not that important unless you want to argue every situation some one tries to aid. Personally, Ill take what they come up with becasue I want the game to work and not be a skill play nightmare.

 

[Maxperson]

This is a good example why using a fictional piece is bad in a mechanical game fictional piece. If aiding one another is a function, then it ought to be possible the whys are not that important unless you want to argue every situation some one tries to aid. Personally, Ill take what they come up with becasue I want the game to work and not be a skill play nightmare.

The rule itself includes the fiction in it. On a personal level, I hate blanket mechanics because almost invariably you will encounter nonsensical applications.