Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

Does Darkvision Ruin Dungeon-Crawling?

  • Yes

  • No

  • I can't see my answer


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I'm not entirely sure what the question is here- can one character help another be lookout? Search for things in a room? Yeah, they'll get advantage. But if one is blind and one can see, if they're solely relying on sight then there isn't going to be assistance given.

"It's like a big snake..."

"No, it's like a wall..."

"No, it's like spear...
 

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I suspect that there may be some miscommunication due to using different versions of the PHB. Also, I'm open to being corrected if wrong. So, I pulled out my old 5e PHB to compare it to the new 2024 version.

"Help" as a specifically named action is described as a combat action in 5e2014. That can be found in Chapter 9, page 192 of the 2014 PHB.

However, you can still help another character outside of combat. In the 2014 PHB, this is described as "Working Together" on page 175 of the 2014 PHB.

The 2014 PHB says that a character can only provide help if the task is one that they could attempt alone. As you can attempt (roll a perception check) to see something alone, that would seem to imply that you could work together.

That being said, the example given of picking a lock is an example in which both characters require proficiency in lockpicking. That might imply that something extra is needed for perception. I don't believe that to be the case for perception though because D&D characters are not typically required to specify that they are proficient in using their own eyes.

Though, in the case of darkness, having Darkvision is kinda proficiency in being able to see when others could not. So, I may be inclined to rule that the assisting character must have some extra-sensory way of aiding the character doing the perception.

The entry later says that working together is only possible if multiple characters working together would be productive. I believe that two people specifically observing the same area for the same things would be productive, but I acknowledge that others do not agree with that.

On page 178, the description of how Perception works along with the Finding A Hidden Object sidebar appears to lend credence to the idea that a character could specify to the DM how/where they are looking in situations where the specifics of how you are attempting to perceive something matters. My view is that specificity would matter for working together with someone.

I could buy that the Group Checks entry might apply to navigating a dungeon using Darkvision.

In the 2024 version of the PHB, "Help" is not defined as a combat action. It is defined as an action that can be taken in the game. Later, the rules glossary explains what that does both for attacks (combat) and for ability checks (not specifically combat). "Help" is listed on page 15; the rules glossary is at the back on the book.

Further, the 2024 PHB specifies that using a skill is an Ability Check that gets to add proficiency bonus (assuming proficiency in the skill). It also specifically states that an Ability check can still be attempted even if a character does not have proficiency. I'm paraphrasing a little, but this can be found on page 13 of the 2024 PHB.

Page 19 of the 2024 PHB mentions how light and visibility impact perception. In dim light, you get Disadvantage.

2024 doesn't contain the same restrictions found in 2014 language (that may or may not have applied).

Darkvision, Dim Light, and Lightly Obscured are all defined in the 2024 Rules Glossary as giving Disadvantage.

Help is defined as giving Advantage.

In 2024 PHB, Advantage and Disadvantage cancel out, the same way they did in 2014.
 

My position is that, with Darkvision, neither is blind.

•Dim Light gives disadvantage.
•Help gives advantage
•disadvantage and advantage cancel out

(While not specified in the rules, I may be inclined to say that the Perception-Helper gets Disadvantage on initiative since they were focused on helping the primary Perception-person being able to perceive and react to a threat. That's not how I feel it plays out in an actual situation, but I think that ruling makes sense in the context of D&D's more abstract perception rules.)

I've seen a few people claim that Help is a combat-specific action. However, I don't see that stated anywhere in the description of actions on page 15 of the (2024) PHB. I also do not see that stated anywhere in the expanded description of Help found in the rules glossary of the same (2024) PHB.
Ah, thanks for explaining. Assisting another requires that that action can be performed by both (two people can't pick a lock if there isn't enough room for both I think is the example given in the book?)- just my opinion here: if you have disadvantage on a check, you can't provide good enough assistance to grant advantage on that check. But if we're talking about keeping watch, hearing is important too so 🤷‍♂️
 

There...........is.............no..............help. They can only see separately unless one of them has already spotted the item. There is no possible way to help someone see the unknown by just standing there and looking for it yourself. There is no possible way to help someone see the unknown through rah rah verbal support. There is no possible way to help someone see better by moving their head around or however else you want to try physically.

Nothing you have described in a post represents helping someone see the unknown while the other person also has not seen it.

It wouldn't matter if they did face the same area. I already showed how if you and I are looking for the same thing(game to hunt) in the same area, you can't help me see the rabbit unless you have already seen it. Until one of us spots the game, we are both looking individually at that area. You standing next to me and looking at the same area doesn't make my vision better or make me more likely to see the rabbit.

Er, I've never said that. At all. I have been arguing every step of the way that the whole party would have disadvantage on their vision checks to see in darkness with darkvision, because of the dim lighting. I've said that it's impossible to help someone see better if you haven't seen the thing yourself, but that's not the same as saying that seeing the thing is impossible.

I've never said that your vision improves.
My position is that your visual perception improves.

Those two things are related but not necessarily the same.

I may notice a detail that you did not.
Being made aware of that detail in conjunction with what you yourself have observed may enable better ability to evaluate what you are seeing and to perceive the difference between randomly blob of gray against the surrounding darkness versus random blob of gray attached to the dim cherry of a cigarette at about the height of where a face would be... and, oh, wait, now I can see the hidden schooner in the mall painting.
 

Ah, thanks for explaining. Assisting another requires that that action can be performed by both (two people can't pick a lock if there isn't enough room for both I think is the example given in the book?)- just my opinion here: if you have disadvantage on a check, you can't provide good enough assistance to grant advantage on that check. But if we're talking about keeping watch, hearing is important too so 🤷‍♂️

Right.

So, maybe alone, I have disadvantage and don't see something.

Likewise, maybe alone, the other person hears a sound and blows it off as a mouse or whatever.

However, together, having that additional detail provided to me helps me make the connection that "there's somebody standing there." My brain needed that little bit extra to more accurately process visual information and better perceive what is in front of me.

Not sight-related, but an example to which I can anecdotally relate is that I have a little bit of hearing loss in certain situations. I can still hear sound (and always pass the beep tests,) but making sense of what the sounds are is harder for me.

My youngest son's mother speaks at a frequency that is among those I struggle to hear when there is background noise. However, if I pick up on a certain word, body language, etc; having that one piece of information allows me to hear and understand -perceive- what she is saying.
 

Darkvision has not been a common feature in D&D for 50 years... not arguing with your general stance, but that idea is just incorrect.
Several demi-human races in the 1978 AD&D Player's Handbook had infravision, ie, the ability to see up to 60ft in darkness. OK, so 47 years.

Did elves not see in the dark in OD&D? Now I'm curious if that changed from the very 1st version.
 

Several demi-human races in the 1978 AD&D Player's Handbook had infravision, ie, the ability to see up to 60ft in darkness. OK, so 47 years.

Did elves not see in the dark in OD&D? Now I'm curious if that changed from the very 1st version.
None of the core PC races can see in the dark in the original 1974 rules, although as I recall some folks inferred that Dwarves could based on Chainmail saying that they operate equally well day or night.

Both Elves and Dwarves were given infravision/the ability to see in the dark in the 1975 Greyhawk supplement.
 

I've never said that your vision improves.
My position is that your visual perception improves.
Tell me how you standing next to me looking at the same place I'm look that improves my visual perception. I'm not looking at any greater square footage of space. So why would you looking at it make me better?
I may notice a detail that you did not.
Which is why you might succeed at your perception check where I fail.
Being made aware of that detail in conjunction with what you yourself have observed may enable better ability to evaluate what you are seeing and to perceive the difference between randomly blob of gray against the surrounding darkness versus random blob of gray attached to the dim cherry of a cigarette at about the height of where a face would be... and, oh, wait, now I can see the hidden schooner in the mall painting.
Comparing notes on what you each see isn't helping another with visual perception. It's comparing notes. Helping another is picking up tools and helping someone make a raft. Helping another is putting stuff in front of a hiding spot to make it better for a hide check. Purely mental acts like memory and perception(brain processing what the eyes see) don't have a way for another to help them via helping another.

If we compare notes one or both of us may deduce(investigation check) something we both missed, but you're as likely to come up with that as I am, so you are not explicitly helping me with perception.
 

Ah, thanks for explaining. Assisting another requires that that action can be performed by both (two people can't pick a lock if there isn't enough room for both I think is the example given in the book?)- just my opinion here: if you have disadvantage on a check, you can't provide good enough assistance to grant advantage on that check. But if we're talking about keeping watch, hearing is important too so 🤷‍♂️
It can be. Suppose a creature in the darkness makes a high stealth check, but isn't hiding behind something. It could be nearly impossible to hear them, but you'd still get a roll to see them in the dim light, but with disadvantage.

The primary problem, though, are purely visual obstacles. A hole in the floor is easily missed. A rock that turns your ankle is easily missed. Virtually every trap under the son wouldn't rely on any other senses than sight. There would be corner case exceptions. Finding secret doors is only sight. Find treasure, something hidden, or really any object is visual only.

Relying on darkvision as a party is dumb. You still need a light source of some sort so that you get rid of the penalty, even if it's very minimal. Remember, in dim light you see normally, so a dim light source would work just fine.
 

Several demi-human races in the 1978 AD&D Player's Handbook had infravision, ie, the ability to see up to 60ft in darkness. OK, so 47 years.

Did elves not see in the dark in OD&D? Now I'm curious if that changed from the very 1st version.
Infravision is not the ability to see in the dark. It only picks up thermal differences in your surroundings. It helps a good amount, but is not the same as seeing in the dark. You'll still miss a lot of little things.
 

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