Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

Does Darkvision Ruin Dungeon-Crawling?

  • Yes

  • No

  • I can't see my answer


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Sometimes you can. “You’re looking in the wrong place: see over there, under the pine tree? That glint of metal?”
Again, though, the context of this discussion is darkvision, and helping someone see better when you don't know where a thing is and have no light source.

I brought up how you would walk into traps because the disadvantage would make it nearly impossible to spot the harder find DCs for traps, because everyone would have disadvantage to find the trap.. Then someone brought up the help action. If someone has already gotten lucky with their disadvantage and seen the trap, then sure they could help by giving advice on where to look to see it.

Prior to that first person getting lucky, though, everyone is at disadvantage and the help action does nothing. Usually there are only one or two people in a party with a perception high enough to have a decent chance to find a trap under good conditions. Give the disadvantage roll to perception checks or the -5 to passive perception and those few are going to fail the vast majority of the time.
 

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Again, though, the context of this discussion is darkvision, and helping someone see better when you don't know where a thing is and have no light source.

I brought up how you would walk into traps because the disadvantage would make it nearly impossible to spot the harder find DCs for traps, because everyone would have disadvantage to find the trap.. Then someone brought up the help action. If someone has already gotten lucky with their disadvantage and seen the trap, then sure they could help by giving advice on where to look to see it.

Prior to that first person getting lucky, though, everyone is at disadvantage and the help action does nothing. Usually there are only one or two people in a party with a perception high enough to have a decent chance to find a trap under good conditions. Give the disadvantage roll to perception checks or the -5 to passive perception and those few are going to fail the vast majority of the time.
I vaguely recall reading that the "help" action (in combat or out) is only possible if the "helper" can actually, reasonably help the other person in that immediate context.

A room full of blinded people won't be of much help to each other, yeah.
 

A human and a grue sit at an inn's common room (just go with it), talking about their quests.

Mystery is a big part of fantasy. What we can't see is mysterious. We can't see in the dark. Darkvision allows us to see in the dark.

Ergo, darkvision ruins fantasy. Dungeon-crawling, in particular.

Agree or disagree? Does everyone in your party have darkvision? Does your GM remember to enforce darkness rules (if any)?
"Common feature that has been in the game for 50 years ruins game that's endured for 50 years" is always going to be a hard argument to make.
 

I vaguely recall reading that the "help" action (in combat or out) is only possible if the "helper" can actually, reasonably help the other person in that immediate context.

A room full of blinded people won't be of much help to each other, yeah.
This is probably what you are thinking of. It's under Working Together in the ability check section.

"Moreover, a character can help only when two or more individuals working together would actually be productive. Some tasks, such as threading a needle, are no easier with help."

Two people standing around looking for something in dim light aren't being more productive other than having two people making rolls. One can't help the other see better without already having found what they are looking for.
 

I think @Thomas Shey said it best. There are so many ways to make dungeons threatening and scary and mysterious that Darkvision doesn't interface yet.

In real life, walking through a densely packed forest in the daylight can be scary. See movies like THE VVITCH which has some of its most tense moments in broad daylight in a big forest. What this example is meant to illustrate is that Darkness is just one technique to break up vision, thus giving an element of surprise to your threats. Winding tunnels, crevices, phasing through walls, being invisible, camo, hidden doors, and more all achieve the same thing as DARKNESS in terms of narrative tone and effect at the table. You can use all these methods and more to make a dungeon into a scary place where danger is everywhere.

Feels like people have talked about this for literally 25 years and have become super narrow-visioned as a result.
 

"Common feature that has been in the game for 50 years ruins game that's endured for 50 years" is always going to be a hard argument to make.
Just "endured?" Yeah, I guess. But Shadowdark players will understand.

Two people standing around looking for something in dim light aren't being more productive other than having two people making rolls. One can't help the other see better without already having found what they are looking for.
Is two PCs making a roll so different from one PC making two rolls?
 

Is two PCs making a roll so different from one PC making two rolls?
When both PCs have disadvantage? Two PCs rolling with disadvantage seems worse to me than one PC rolling one time normally, since the person rolling that one time will be the PC with the best perception.
 


Just "endured?" Yeah, I guess. But Shadowdark players will understand.


Is two PCs making a roll so different from one PC making two rolls?
Shadowdark is fundamentally a different game where you're are modern-OSR-style nobodies going into a deathtrap situation and hopefully coming out alive. It's very much a survival horror + "challenge run" game as most OSR games are. But even these games don't actually need darkness to operate, that's just the medium they've chosen to embrace.

Have you played Elden Ring, by chance?
 

In real life, walking through a densely packed forest in the daylight can be scary. See movies like THE VVITCH which has some of its most tense moments in broad daylight in a big forest. What this example is meant to illustrate is that Darkness is just one technique to break up vision, thus giving an element of surprise to your threats. Winding tunnels, crevices, phasing through walls, being invisible, camo, hidden doors, and more all achieve the same thing as DARKNESS in terms of narrative tone and effect at the table. You can use all these methods and more to make a dungeon into a scary place where danger is everywhere.
The thing is, darkness should be the name of the game in dungeon-crawling. The only darker thing should be cave-crawling, but who goes cave-crawling? Anyway, those are all good vision-obstructing examples, but they can, and should, happen anywhere. Above ground. Giving everyone darkvision just raises all dungeons above ground, during daylight. Or it makes them into Skyrim dungeons, where there is darkness, but it's still pretty bright. I modded that away a long time ago.

Feels like people have talked about this for literally 25 years and have become super narrow-visioned as a result.
Hmm... maybe I should add super narrow vision to the poll. It might also ruin dungeon crawling...

When both PCs have disadvantage? Two PCs rolling with disadvantage seems worse to me than one PC rolling one time normally, since the person rolling that one time will be the PC with the best perception.
Could be. But it's interesting, since the two-with-Disadvantage are effectively rolling four rolls and not taking the lowest. The single roller takes the lowest and the highest, since they're the same roll.
 

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