Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Argyle King]

No. You can't help someone else see better. You can only have disadvantage just like they do. The help action is for physical acts, which is why it's in the combat section.

Outside of combat it is impossible to help someone with a task?

If so, I stand corrected. I feel that is unusual, but it wouldn't be the first D&D rule to work differently than I had thought.

Edit: The "Action" section on page 15 of the PHB doesn't specify that those actions are only available during combat.

Though, I haven't played 5e for a while, so maybe it is implied?

 

[Distracted DM]

No. You can't help someone else see better. You can only have disadvantage just like they do. The help action is for physical acts, which is why it's in the combat section.

Outside of combat it is impossible to help someone with a task?

If so, I stand corrected. I feel that is unusual, but it wouldn't be the first D&D rule to work differently than I had thought.

Edit: The "Action" section on page 15 of the PHB doesn't specify that those actions are only available during combat.

Though, I haven't played 5e for a while, so maybe it is implied?

Help is an action in combat- but you can certainly assist others with tasks for Advantage, that's found under Working Together under the using ability scores section.

 

[Maxperson]

Outside of combat it is impossible to help someone with a task?

See better? 100% You can't improve my vision by standing there trying to help me.

If so, I stand corrected. I feel that is unusual, but it wouldn't be the first D&D rule to work differently than I had thought.

The Help Action is combat only. Helping others outside of combat you can do, but it's not the Help Action.

 

[Maxperson]

Help is an action in combat- but you can certainly assist others with tasks for Advantage, that's found under Working Together under the using ability scores section.

You still can't help someone have better vision(in the context of this discussion anyway). Per the rules, there is only a roll if the outcome is in doubt. The outcome of that help is not in doubt. It simply cannot work, so there no advantage roll.

 

[Argyle King]

See better? 100% You can't improve my vision by standing there trying to help me.

The Help Action is combat only. Helping others outside of combat you can do, but it's not the Help Action.

That's not how the Help Action is described on pg15. It is described as one of the main actions of the game and (paraphrasing) can be used to assist with an ability check. Appendix C of the Rules Glossary explains that doing so grants Advantage on the check.

Edit: Though, again, I haven't played D&D for a bit, so maybe I am mistaken in how I am understanding how the phb is phrasing things. I'm looking at the new PHB.

See better? Yes and no. There's not a specific sight check in D&D; in game terms, you would be assisting with Perception (which is a Wisdom ability check using the Perception skill).

In an actual situation? Yes. Having squad members be able to point things out and communicate (likely with hand & arm signals if being stealthy) is something that works.

 

[Maxperson]

That's not how the Help Action is described on pg15. It is described as one of the main actions of the game and (paraphrasing) can be used to assist with an ability check. Appendix C of the Rules Glossary explains that doing so grants Advantage on the check.

Again, RAW is that you only roll for an ability check if the outcome is in doubt. There's no amount of help that will let me see the unknown better. You can't do it, so no roll because no doubt. The advantage roll never happens.

See better? Yes and no. There's not a specific sight check in D&D; in game terms, you would be assisting with Perception (which is a Wisdom ability check using the Perception skill).

How are you making my vision better in the dark? What kind of help other than making light can you give to help me see the unknown to both of us?

In an actual situation? Yes. Having squad members be able to point things out and communicate (likely with hand & arm signals if being stealthy) is something that works.

That's why I said in the context of this discussion. This discussion is about seeing better on watch or in dim light where nobody has actually seen the thing in question. There's no one to help by pointing things out.

 

[Argyle King]

Again, RAW is that you only roll for an ability check if the outcome is in doubt. There's no amount of help that will let me see the unknown better. You can't do it, so no roll because no doubt. The advantage roll never happens.

How are you making my vision better in the dark? What kind of help other than making light can you give to help me see the unknown to both of us?

That's why I said in the context of this discussion. This discussion is about seeing better on watch or in dim light where nobody has actually seen the thing in question. There's no one to help by pointing things out.

Yes, that is possible.

In low-light conditions, you would visually be looking for details that can still be seen in low-light conditions.

For example, when I was a kid and would go hunting with my dad early in the morning, I was taught (and learned) to pick out the general shape and outline of a deer -rather than relying on details such as color and other such things that you might look for in better visibility.

Similarly, later in life, when in the military, that same concept could be applied when standing watch as part of a security perimeter for a squad and/or when trying to seek out and close with enemy combatants in conditions of limited visibility. Such conditions included things like fog, sandstorms, and dim light.

On top of that, a more generalized Perception check would also include your other senses. Maybe you hear breathing or catch a scent of perfume.

Is it difficult? Yes, it is -hence the disadvantage to do it unaided.

With a trained combat squad such as group of delvers, teaming up in battle-buddy pairs to help mitigate some of that difficulty is possible.

Darkvision may not be quite as good as contemporary modern warfare gear, but it does allow being able to see without light. A party with Darkvision is neither blind nor incapable of seeing.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, that is possible.

In low-light conditions, you would visually be looking for details that can still be seen in low-light conditions.

For example, when I was a kid and would go hunting with my dad early in the morning, I was taught (and learned) to pick out the general shape and outline of a deer -rather than relying on details such as color and other such things that you might look for in better visibility.

You were made proficient with perception. It did not make your vision better.

Similarly, later in life, when in the military, that same concept could be applied when standing watch as part of a security perimeter for a squad and/or when trying to seek out and close with enemy combatants in conditions of limited visibility. Such conditions included things like fog, sandstorms, and dim light.

Specialization in perception. Your vision, though, stayed the same. Unless you had laser surgery or were given glasses/contacts with PCs don't get.

On top of that, a more generalized Perception check would also include your other senses. Maybe you hear breathing or catch a scent of perfume.

The context of this discussion is darkvision and the disadvantage associated with visual perception checks, so no other senses matter for the purposes of this discussion.

Is it difficult? Yes, it is -hence the disadvantage to do it unaided.

And aided. What you describe above is training, not aid by some guy standing next to you. That guy next to you who has no idea where, when or what is in the darkness himself, can't help you see it.

Darkvision may not be quite as good as contemporary modern warfare gear, but it does allow being able to see without light. A party with Darkvision is neither blind nor incapable of seeing.

But they do get disadvantage to visual perception checks, which is a massive penalty in a game like D&D.

Imagine your darkvision party walks into a room and on the desk is some stuff. Mixed into that stuff is a ring. Nobody knows it is there. How is the guy next to you going to aid you in seeing that ring sitting there? He can't and nothing you describe above changes that. You both get individual rolls with disadvantage to see the ring.

 

[Distracted DM]

I'm not entirely sure what the question is here- can one character help another be lookout? Search for things in a room? Yeah, they'll get advantage. But if one is blind and one can see, if they're solely relying on sight then there isn't going to be assistance given.

 

[Bae'zel]

See better? 100% You can't improve my vision by standing there trying to help me.

Sometimes you can. “You’re looking in the wrong place: see over there, under the pine tree? That glint of metal?”

Or perhaps helping someone perform a task who can’t see well (eg, guiding a blinded person up some stairs).

The Help Action is combat only. Helping others outside of combat you can do, but it's not the Help Action.

To be pedantic, yes, the Help Action is in combat, but you can assist another PC out of combat on any check if the conditions are right. For simplicity, most of us say “Help” because it’s the same thing and the word means… to help.