Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Maxperson]

Their line of logic kind of went like this:

1 person watching- 1 person's Perception is being used.

2 people watching- 2 person's Perception is being used.

Where they balked was the idea that two watchmen could Help each other, boosting each other's Perception (advantage and +5 passive), which was somehow better than having a third watchman on duty.

I don't personally worry about things like this too much (though there is the occasional oddity like trying to Help someone else's Stealth check), but it's a common belief that rules < the game world making logical sense, which is the whole reason I brought this up.

There's also a lot of DM's who feel the Help action is abuseable (google 5e Help action and the second post leads to a discussion about how it should be limited), but then again, these are generally the same people who have an issue with Guidance being used liberally- which is, like you said, a whole different discussion.

If someone can give me an example of how one PC is going to help another PC see better that isn't a description both of them sitting around separately on watch, I'd love to hear it.

Short of something absurd like helping the PC on watch by sticking your fingers into the person on watch's eyes to move them around, you aren't helping the person see things. You are seeing things separately.

 

[GrimCo]

Oh, they both are sitting around on watch. One person is actively looking, while other is focused on actively listening with eyes closed. We are wired to rely primary on visual perception. When you shut down visual stimuli and focus on other senses, brain processes them better.

 

[aramis erak]

You know, it occurs to me that while I have traveled in pitch black places with lamps and flashlights, I have never done so with an actual flaming torch. That would be an interesting experience to apply to this argument. Has anyone actually used a real fire torch for light? How did that go?

Yes, I have. You need to not be behind your light source. Lindy Beige has a couple videos explaining better than I can:

I've also fenced in snow by tiki torch... that was a fun evening... the field was about 30'x30', lit by four kerosene tikitorches at the corners, and the Alaskan stars, no moon. It does impede the fighting a bit; partly the ice, partly the dark, partly the flickering.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I've also fenced in snow by tiki torch... that was a fun evening... the field was about 30'x30', lit by four kerosene tikitorches at the corners, and the Alaskan stars, no moon. It does impede the fighting a bit; partly the ice, partly the dark, partly the flickering.

... partly the vampires taking advantage of the 30 days of night.

 

[Mannahnin]

One thing that always rubbed me wrong way is prevalent use of torches. Oil lamps were thing way back in the ancient Greece and Rome. Romans and Byzantines even made metal oil lamps. Sure, you need to carry it, but it still beats torches. And let's be honest, tech in most fantasy settings is way ahead.

How far do those actually cast light, though, and how big are they? Small handheld oil lamps usually have a flame the size of a candle flame. They're handy for reading or darning your socks by, because you can set them down on the table and sit right next to them. Torches and lanterns utilize a bigger flame and/or reflectors to cast light farther.

For what it's worth, i kinda find the torch management to be more of a pain than it's worth- one logistically inclined player can basically make it no big deal, same as rations, water, etc. I've heard a pretty good argument that the best way to keep people from dallying in a dungeon in OSR type games is just have time be taken and use the wandering monster table to pressure the HP of players, because HP is not so trivially recovered in OSR, then you can kinda kick the other resources to the curb, which is easier on others involved.

Which is why you also need unpredictable torch-snuffing events.

Torches have the virtue that they're cheap, to the point you can make them yourself without any special skill if you have the resources. That's the only real reason for them.

One of the most enjoyable experiences I've had with light management was recently running Arnold K's The Lair of the Lamb scenario, using his Goblin Laws of Gaming. The rules use 10 minute exploration turns.

Light
The dungeon is pitch black.

• Torches illuminate 30' and go out after they are depleted twice. Dropped torches can be picked up.
• Oil flasks illuminate 30' and and go out after they are depleted twice. If you drop (or throw) an oil lamp, it creates a 10' wide pool of fire that burns for 3 rounds, and deals 1d6 damage per round to everything that remains in contact with it.
• Candles illuminate 10' and last all day.

Torches and lanterns deplete during Encounter Checks, but only the Encounter checks that occur every 30 minutes, not the ones that occur as a result of noise.

Light sources are extinguished if you fall in water.

Random Encounters
Every area has a local Encounter Table, which determines who will cross you path. But to determine when this happens, you need to roll Encounter Checks.

Every 30 minutes, roll an Encounter Check by rolling your Encounter Die and your Recon Die simultaneously. I recommend using a cereal bowl.

The Encounter Die
The Encounter Die is a yellow d6. Your type of encounter is based on what it shows.
1 Active Encounter
2 Passive Encounter
3 Indirect Encounter
4-6 Depletion

An Active Encounter is one that forces the party to engage. In a dungeon, this is usually a hostile creature that wants to kill you.

A Passive Encounter is one that gives you the option of engaging. In a dungeon, this is usually a non-hostile creature, or a hostile creature that isn't immediately threatening.

An Indirect Encounter is one that you can't directly engage with. You might still be able to gain from information from it, or it might just show you the mood of the location.

The players in this scenario are escaping prisoners locked in a dungeon with a terrible monster and have to scrounge light sources.

I gave the player who was holding the light a brass goblet to keep in front of him at the table to represent the light source. The first time it depleted I would drop a die into it, as a physical reminder and cue to the players that it will go out next time it depletes.

This scenario and set of rules does a nice job keeping the players moving and seeking actively for more light sources.

 

[Maxperson]

Oh, they both are sitting around on watch. One person is actively looking, while other is focused on actively listening with eyes closed. We are wired to rely primary on visual perception. When you shut down visual stimuli and focus on other senses, brain processes them better.

That's still not help. The person on watch with disadvantage to sight is also actively listening, and without a penalty since the penalty is only to visual perception. The other person closing his eyes just means that he has zero chance of seeing something rather than disadvantage, and the same listening ability as the first guy.

You can't help someone else see better with the help action.

 

[Reynard]

That's still not help. The person on watch with disadvantage to sight is also actively listening, and without a penalty since the penalty is only to visual perception. The other person closing his eyes just means that he has zero chance of seeing something rather than disadvantage, and the same listening ability as the first guy.

You can't help someone else see better with the help action.

I would allow someone with darkvision to use the help action with someone without it, though. Similar to how a spotter works for snipers in the field, you can say, "At your 5 o'clock just below that ridge" or whatever.

 

[Maxperson]

I would allow someone with darkvision to use the help action with someone without it, though. Similar to how a spotter works for snipers in the field, you can say, "At your 5 o'clock just below that ridge" or whatever.

If someone doesn't have darkvision they can't see anything at all, so all 5 o'clock really does is let them know which direction an obstacle is in, not help them see it better.

 

[Reynard]

If someone doesn't have darkvision they can't see anything at all, so all 5 o'clock really does is let them know which direction an obstacle is in, not help them see it better.

You're right. In my head we were talking about someone who had disadvantage being helped by someone who could see, not blind and darkvision. My bad.

 

[Umbran]

If someone can give me an example of how one PC is going to help another PC see better that isn't a description both of them sitting around separately on watch, I'd love to hear it.

Sure.
One person on watch has to cover a full 360-degree view around.
Two people on watch, back to back, each have to only cover 180-degrees of view.

So, two on watch isn't just two people doing the same job redundantly. They each also have their focus effective doubled.