D&D General The Generic Deities of D&D

[DammitVictor]

Add to that the idea, which I've always subscribed to, that a deity's power comes from its worshippers - meaning it's in deity's best interests to promote itself to like-minded mortals in order to gain more followers - and designing the pantheon, the deities and the religion supporting each of those deities all at once suddenly makes a lot more sense as each is going to directly affect the others.

I find it extremely distasteful. It's a retroactive justification for why ancient deities behave like newborn evangelist cults, and it grossly diminishes their majesty. Beings that require and demand worship are, practically by definition, not worthy of it.

And then it justifies garbage like the Wall of the Faithless which makes the "Good" alignment utterly meaningless.

 

[DammitVictor]

In 1e by RAW can Dwarves even be Clerics?

Yeah, didn't think so...

Uhm... yes.. They're the template for almost every nonhuman AD&D race having Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Fighter/Cleric and Fighter/Thief to choose from.

They were even allowed to be Clerics in BECMI starting with Dwarves of Rockhome.

 

[Lanefan]

Uhm... yes.. They're the template for almost every nonhuman AD&D race having Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Fighter/Cleric and Fighter/Thief to choose from.

In 1e RAW Dwarven Clerics are NPC only.

PC Dwarves in 1e can be Fighters, Thieves, or Assassins. That's it. (PH page 14)

The only class that's open to everyone without limit is Thief.

They were even allowed to be Clerics in BECMI starting with Dwarves of Rockhome.

I think 2e also allowed them to be Clerics.

 

[DammitVictor]

In 1e RAW Dwarven Clerics are NPC only.

I'll be damned. I somehow forgot that. Demihuman Cleric PCs must have been in Unearthed Arcana.

I've played the Gold Box games much more recently than actual First Edition. I'm surprised they used the optional rules.

 

[Lanefan]

I find it extremely distasteful. It's a retroactive justification for why ancient deities behave like newborn evangelist cults, and it grossly diminishes their majesty. Beings that require and demand worship are, practically by definition, not worthy of it.

I see deities as being in competition for limited resources just like anything else in nature; only in this case the 'resources' are mortal worshippers.

And then it justifies garbage like the Wall of the Faithless which makes the "Good" alignment utterly meaningless.

A quick google search shows me the Wall of the Faithless is there to take in souls of those who didn't follow any deity - souls which in the FR setting (where it's from) would be a rare thing indeed given how active and in-people's-faces the deities sometimes tend to be there.

 

[dave2008]

My takeaway was that Bahumat or Pelor were more in the leader role, bit my 4E experience was limited to the very beginning of the Edition.

It's been very cool reading the latest book, which brings back the Dawn War and that Pantheon in a big way.

Possibly, but Bahamut was given stats which mean he wasn't as "powerful" as Bane and Moradin who were deemed to be too strong to be given stats. I believe I read somewhere they in theory had Bane at level 38-39 and Moradon at 40.

 

[Minigiant]

OD&D dwarves could only be fighters. Adding 1e supplements allows cleric and thief.

The stereotypical 4 person party is Dwarf Fighter, Elf Wizard, Halfling Thief, Human Cleric
5 person party is Dwarf Fighter/Cleric, Elf Wizard, Halfling Thief, Human Fighter, Human Halfcaster

I find it extremely distasteful. It's a retroactive justification for why ancient deities behave like newborn evangelist cults, and it grossly diminishes their majesty. Beings that require and demand worship are, practically by definition, not worthy of it.

And then it justifies garbage like the Wall of the Faithless which makes the "Good" alignment utterly meaningless.

The issue is in many settings neither serve a purpose, manage the world, nor did anything worthy.
They simply exist and fight each other.
It's a bad basis for any sort of religion.

 

[dave2008]

Add to that the idea, which I've always subscribed to, that a deity's power comes from its worshippers -

I've never liked that idea personally. My view is that deities can gain power from worshipers, but they don't technically need it. The can exist and gain power without worshipers, but the methods to gain more power are difficult and often dangerous - even for a god.

However, once you cultivate a steady source of power (like worshipers) it can become somewhat addictive

 

[DammitVictor]

I see deities as being in competition for limited resources just like anything else in nature; only in this case the 'resources' are mortal worshippers.

Yeah, so does Dungeons & Dragons. That's the problem. That conception of divinity, in D&D, is inherently maltheistic and it is compounded by the inventively grotesque ways its authors compel the worship of beings that are fundamentally unworthy of it.

I mean, at least Dark Sun is honest about what its "gods" are.

It's a bad basis for any sort of religion.

Exactly. And it undermines the entire basis of the setting's tone when these squabbling parasitic children are purported to be the ultimate arbiters of what is (im)moral and (un)ethical within it.

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah, so does Dungeons & Dragons. That's the problem. That conception of divinity, in D&D, is inherently maltheistic and it is compounded by the inventively grotesque ways its authors compel the worship of beings that are fundamentally unworthy of it.

I mean, at least Dark Sun is honest about what its "gods" are.

There is nothing wrong with a maltheistic pantheons. Nor a pantheons of jerks worshipped out of fear.

One just has to be honest about it.

Exactly. And it undermines the entire basis of the setting's tone when these squabbling parasitic children are purported to be the ultimate arbiters of what is (im)moral and (un)ethical within it.

Being squabbling parasitic dirty children isn't the problem. The lack of relationship between deity and worshipper.

It all comes down to the "monsterization" of the nonhuman humanoids. The elves, dwarves, gnomes, orcs, and the rest follow their gods and pantheons for no real reason.

Even Warhammer has the racial gods actively fight the chaos gods. The 4eDawn War gods at least can claim to be holding the demons and Titans back.