D&D 5E Unconscious PC's and smart monsters

[Horwath]

While it is effective from the standpoint of scaring the players, I disagree that it's generally effective with respect to winning (and/or surviving).

You're wasting attacks to make certain that a character who can't attack you won't be able to attack you IF they are able to get back up. The thing is, if there are other characters who are actively attacking you (or your allies), then you are throwing away attacks that could move those characters towards not being able to attack you, over a maybe. Even if you are aware that they have a healer, it is often more effective to focus fire on the healer, to take them out of the equation. After all, with spells like revivify, even killing an unconscious character doesn't guarantee their removal from the combat. However, if the healer is out of the equation, it pretty much does (short of something like Wish).

Unless the NPCs are part of a larger organization, and are willing to sacrifice themselves to deal with that group's enemies, I don't see killing unconscious characters as the best means of survival. In the real world, soldiers don't typically go around executing unconscious people while enemy soldiers are shooting at them. It's illogical.

That said, this doesn't account for player psychology, only NPCs doing their best to survive and win. Obviously, play as you prefer.

this.

if you down a PC and then attack other one and beat him up, they will consider to grab their buddy and run of.

If you execute their buddy, they might just redouble the effort to cut your head off.


Now, we had in 3.5e variant that PCs used; when you move through a square a downed enemy(difficult terrain) you could as a free action step on their neck on the way and deal normal unarmed damage.

In 5e this could be an Extra failed death save.

 

[DEFCON 1]

D&D is a game built around combat. The entire book of enemies is designed to give rules and mechanics on how to kill them and how they kill you. And huge swathes of the game rules are about making sure the players recover from being killed, and are designed so that the people involved get into life-threatening combat way, way, WAY more often than ever actually happened in "real life". So worrying about "real-life" in terms of just surrendering is missing the forest from the trees.

If you want to mimic the "real" action of people not throwing their lives away in a bandit encounter... then you start by having every character only have 1st level hit points, they die at 0 HP (no death saves), and when they are hurt they have a -5 to attack rolls, damage, and saves. That way when the bandits fire their crossbows and hit the PCs one time... if they aren't killed outright, they are pretty much gravely injured and in no position to "fight back" (like someone who has just been impaled by a crossbow bolt would be). Maybe then the PCs will surrender rather than try and fight back and subsequently be easily killed.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The trouble with exploiting the downed condition is that it's verging on metagaming, and as a DM, it's not really a trick you can repeat without the players both getting wise to it, and getting mad with you. And then they'll start questioning why NPCs auto-die on 0 HP and thinking whether they can do the same trick and you've basically opened a giant can of worms.

Certain monsters make sense to keep attacking down characters - not many, and usually only if an active character isn't nearby - and there may be NPCs for whom this makes sense, particularly important ones with names and so on.

But this is a trick you'll get away with like, once a campaign, maybe twice. Before the players do something like just cast Healing Word on the guy you're "threatening" who then immediately gets his full go and uses his move to stand up and then stabs you to death with his longsword. Why waste that on bandits? The main thing bandits and the like should do is RUN AWAY. Don't have them fight to the last - have them get whilst the getting is good - i.e. when like half of them are dead or even sooner. That makes sense, it works okay in D&D rules (fleeing when you have numerical advantage still - fleeing at a numerical disadvantage is almost always a bad idea in 5E).

 

[Oofta]

I try to base behavior on what makes sense from the perspective of the attacker. Some animal intelligence creatures (insects and arachnids for example) are more likely to fight to the death. Others will flee once they realize the fight isn't going their way.

Bandits? That's tough. They may be desperate and feel like they have nothing to lose. It's also a question of what to do with hostages. Don't assume the NPCs will think surrender is an option. Depending on setting and situation it may not be practical to take hostages. Are the PCs part of a well organized army where NPCs are ransomed? Do the PCs have any options at all for turning captives over to someone else? Do you want to deal with it if there is no good option on what to do with captives?

I will sometimes have the NPCs take hostages and let everyone know that if anyone even twitches they'll stab the hostage. Mechanically that means the PCs can't even begin a spell without the readied action going off.

The real question is what is going to be fun for the group and the situation. Do it all the time and it's kind of boring. Do it once in a while and it's a holy **** moment.

As far as attacking downed PCs, in a world where magic exists it may make sense to take them out. Based on the monster though I find it more fun to start dragging unconscious PCs off to be eaten. More dramatic, still gives the downed PC a chance while making it tense because they may be out of range of healing word before the caster goes.

It depends on the monster, do they know the PCs capabilities and the monster level. The higher the level the monster the more likely they've seen enemies get healed in combat and they'll focus fire and double tap.

Last, but not least, talk to your group. This is something I do in a session 0, get a feel for how deadly a game they want. Different people play for different reasons and while I generally don't run a super deadly game it's up to my players.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I will sometimes have the NPCs take hostages and let everyone know that if anyone even twitches they'll stab the hostage. Mechanically that means the PCs can't even begin a spell without the readied action going off.

The trouble is, if you do this and the result is anything more than the NPC making a single basic attack (maybe at advantage), you really open a massive can of worms, because it means the PCs can do the same, and also opens up all sorts of other questions. The most the NPC can actually do under the rules is ready an action, to, I guess, use his reaction to what, take a single basic attack (some DMs would allow you to ready the entire attack action but I've seen some dispute over this), and I'm not even sure "if any of the PCs take an action or use any of their move" is entirely legal condition to ready against. Will a single basic attack (or even the attack action?) kill the hostage? I guess if they have very low HP or are a downed PC it might (stress on the might). But if you let it be anything more than that, then it's literal matter of time before it happens in reverse, or a player wants a detailed explanation of why he can't assassinate guards or the like.

Based on the monster though I find it more fun to start dragging unconscious PCs off to be eaten. More dramatic, still gives the downed PC a chance while making it tense because they may be out of range of healing word before the caster goes.

Have you ever actually done this? Healing Word has a 60' range and the PC can likely move 30' before casting it. You're not going to be dragging a PC 90' in a single round. An exceptionally fast (and pretty strong) monster, where the PC was downed the round before, might dubiously be able to pick up the PC and Move + Dash action away with them, but that's not dragging. Otherwise Healing Word makes this kind of a joke/trap.

I feel like this is the sort of thing that would work well on people new to the game and/or who don't understand the mechanics, but against your average party, which probably includes a veteran or three, or at least some rules-experts, no chance.

 

[Horwath]

The trouble is, if you do this and the result is anything more than the NPC making a single basic attack (maybe at advantage), you really open a massive can of worms, because it means the PCs can do the same, and also opens up all sorts of other questions. The most the NPC can actually do under the rules is ready an action, to, I guess, use his reaction to what, take a single basic attack (some DMs would allow you to ready the entire attack action but I've seen some dispute over this), and I'm not even sure "if any of the PCs take an action or use any of their move" is entirely legal condition to ready against. Will a single basic attack (or even the attack action?) kill the hostage? I guess if they have very low HP or are a downed PC it might (stress on the might). But if you let it be anything more than that, then it's literal matter of time before it happens in reverse, or a player wants a detailed explanation of why he can't assassinate guards or the like.

If you have someone held up with a dagger under the throat, I would say; that attack would leads to auto 0 HPs with 1 or 2 failed death saves added. Maybe instant kill if their HPs were very low.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

If you have someone held up with a dagger under the throat, I would say; that attack would leads to auto 0 HPs with 1 or 2 failed death saves added. Maybe instant kill if their HPs were very low.

Sure, but that's not how D&D's rules actually work, and if you start doing that, you open a can of worms, as I said, because now the PCs can do the same to sleeping NPCs, to guards who they manage to take by surprise, and arguably anyone they can grapple who is Medium size or smaller, because what even is "held with a dagger under the throat" in rules terms. It's not a thing, and that's not an accident, because it would make it extremely easy to deal with a lot of threats if it was.

Instant kills can work on NPCs if they have low HP because for NPCs 0 HP = death, but it very dubious for PCs, because there are rules for that, and contradicting them like this is a great way to cause problems in the longer-run.

 

[Oofta]

The trouble is, if you do this and the result is anything more than the NPC making a single basic attack (maybe at advantage), you really open a massive can of worms, because it means the PCs can do the same, and also opens up all sorts of other questions. The most the NPC can actually do under the rules is ready an action, to, I guess, use his reaction to what, take a single basic attack (some DMs would allow you to ready the entire attack action but I've seen some dispute over this), and I'm not even sure "if any of the PCs take an action or use any of their move" is entirely legal condition to ready against. Will a single basic attack (or even the attack action?) kill the hostage? I guess if they have very low HP or are a downed PC it might (stress on the might). But if you let it be anything more than that, then it's literal matter of time before it happens in reverse, or a player wants a detailed explanation of why he can't assassinate guards or the like.

This is with an unconscious PC (or NPC). So the attack would be at advantage and automatically be a critical.

As far as "the PCs could do it too" ... well yes. Things like this work both ways.

Have you ever actually done this? Healing Word has a 60' range and the PC can likely move 30' before casting it. You're not going to be dragging a PC 90' in a single round. An exceptionally fast (and pretty strong) monster, where the PC was downed the round before, might dubiously be able to pick up the PC and Move + Dash action away with them, but that's not dragging. Otherwise Healing Word makes this kind of a joke/trap.

That assumes a lot of things. That the caster was close to the downed PC, that it's safe for the caster to move closer, that the creature dragging the PC off only moves 30 ft. That the caster has line of effect to the PC (you have to see the target) and so on.

So yes, I have done this and will probably do it again. Not every fight or every game session. But when it's appropriate it's added tension and fun to the game.

 

[iserith]

Does anyone else find it strange that so many NPC's have to die? Like, I get cultists and characters on death row anyways. But why is it so common to have, say, common bandits risk their whole lives to take money from random travelers when things have obviously gone south?

On that note: I feel smart enemies that knock a PC unconscious should be smart. Some people say they'll be ignored, the others say they'll be killed. I think an intelligent NPC will grab the PC and negotiate their lives by taking them hostage. A dying PC is a problem, a dead one a setback, but a dying hostage PC is a crisis. If the party is low level, they won't be able to revive them. If the party is high level, there's a good chance the enemy has something that can lock them out of revival (like zombification).

Also, nobody typically wants to fight unless they have to or they're certain they can win. A losing NPC will want to end combat asap by bargaining and a winning NPC wants to end combat asap by threatening. Only over-the-top characters should still be in a prolonged fight.

I think a good way of thinking about such things is that, in a game based on imagination, there is no "will," "would," or "should" - it's all "may, "might," or "could." Then, as DM, you just decide which of the many possibilities is going to be the most fun for everyone in the moment and help contribute to an exciting, memorable story, and do that.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This is with an unconscious PC (or NPC). So the attack would be at advantage and automatically be a critical.

As far as "the PCs could do it too" ... well yes. Things like this work both ways.

So two strikes on the Death Save tracker, assuming they don't manage to miss despite having Advantage. This works well if the PC is already one strike down, but is almost a non-threat if they aren't.

That assumes a lot of things. That the caster was close to the downed PC, that it's safe for the caster to move closer, that the creature dragging the PC off only moves 30 ft. That the caster has line of effect to the PC (you have to see the target) and so on.

So yes, I have done this and will probably do it again. Not every fight or every game session. But when it's appropriate it's added tension and fun to the game.

More than 30' is my point though - at that point you're not dragging dramatically, you're just taking the body and fleeing in a cartoonish way. The LOS-break issue is unlikely to be a major one unless you do the ol' cartoon sprint. And the most likely end to the scenario, regardless of other factors, is Healing Word (or similar) being cast on the PC who then immediately gets up and thumps the monster (or casts a spell or whatever).

There's just some things D&D isn't very good at handling.