D&D 5E Kara Tur vs Tarkir vs Kamigawa vs Plane of Mountains and Seas vs Ikoria

[gyor]

I said I'd start a Kara Tur thread so I'd stop high jacking a MtG settings thread with posts about Kara Tur, so here it is.

Kara Tur simply works better as a D&D setting because it's designed for D&D, although Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, aren't a major presence in Kara Tur, because it's part of FR, they do exist and are playable so all PHB, MTOF, VGTM are valid.

Also it's compatible with the already existing FR AL campaign.

It's has interesting races.

It has far, far more diverse amount of cultures, religions, and regions then Tarkir and Kamigawa.

And it doesn't rely on the MtG story returning to Tarkar and Kamigawa to do.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I feel like Kara Tur has had it's time as a setting because Legend of Five Rings basically did what it did, only way, way, better.

It's also a bit wishy-washy, and mish-mashy, and yeah so is the main FR, arguably, but I think if you wanted to do a setting based on the same sort of elements, you'd want something a bit strong. Like Lo5R's Rokugan.

If I was WotC, I feel like at this point, I'd be more keen to work with the Lo5R people than to produce a rival game based on a somewhat "meh" take on that material. Or if I really wanted to set it in the Realms for some reason, I'd find a smaller region of Kara Tur, and focus down on that (like SCAG only not rubbish).

 

[Aldarc]

Counter-Point: a MtG setting does more for expanding WotC's customer base than Kara Tur would. Also, Kara Tur is covered in the stench of orientalism.

 

[Tonguez]

Counter-Point: a MtG setting does more for expanding WotC's customer base than Kara Tur would. Also, Kara Tur is covered in the stench of orientalism.

They all carry the stench of orientalism, while Kara Tur was laden with oriental stereotype and the entire theme was “opening the exotic orient to the Faerun West”, Tarkir and Kamigawa are really no less steeped in the exoticsm of Asia to US/European audiences. The creators just had the luxury of better information, an awareness of what to avoid and the ability to tell their own story rather than create a pastiche of ‘real’ cultures for fantasy play.

I feel like Kara Tur has had it's time as a setting because Legend of Five Rings basically did what it did, only way, way, better.

It's also a bit wishy-washy, and mish-mashy, and yeah so is the main FR, arguably, but I think if you wanted to do a setting based on the same sort of elements, you'd want something a bit strong. Like Lo5R's Rokugan.

If I was WotC, I feel like at this point, I'd be more keen to work with the Lo5R people than to produce a rival game based on a somewhat "meh" take on that material. Or if I really wanted to set it in the Realms for some reason, I'd find a smaller region of Kara Tur, and focus down on that (like SCAG only not rubbish).

Rokugan was just Japan, so no it didnt do what Kara-Tur did at all which was open up the various cultures of Asia and then give them the DnD homogenization treatment. The two advantages of both Rokugan and Tarkir though were that they were crafting an Asian themed story whereas Kara-Tur was crafting a broad setting.

Personally I think a new Asian product that incorporates the Clans of Tarkir with a strong story element and design from actual Asian game teams would be cool. It would allow the MtG tie-in to occur, while simultaneously expanding the both settings and allow incorporation of new themes, races and design elements that feel more authentic and less pandering to western audiences.

Anyway for a Tarkir-Kara-Tur corresponsence
Jeskai in Tun Lung
Abzan in the Hordelands
Sultai in Mahasarpa/Malatra
Mardu in the Plain of Horses
Temur in the Northern wastes
Then add your Rokugan/Wa and more Authentic approved ‘Imperial Shou Lung’

 

[wingsandsword]

Counter-Point: a MtG setting does more for expanding WotC's customer base than Kara Tur would. Also, Kara Tur is covered in the stench of orientalism.

Kara Tur IS a D&D setting. It should be covered by WotC. I've long been frustrated at the lack of support from WotC for the Realms beyond Faerun, for Kara Tur, Maztica, or Zakhara (not to mention Katashaka or Osse, the two continents we've never had anything about other than the vaguest mentions).

All D&D settings based on a real-world culture or region have some level of distortion for the sake of making a good gaming setting. Kara Tur is based on East and Southeast Asia. . .but the distortion or stereotypes are just as prominent in Faerun.

The Moonshae Isles are a fantasy version of the British Isles
Amn is based on Inquisition-era Spain
Cormyr is based on an idealized version of Medieval France
Chessenta is based on Ancient Greece
Sembia is based on Renaissance-era Italy
Vaasa is a fantasy version of Finland
Rashemen is a fantasy version of Russia.

Making fantasy analogues of real world cultures is a LOT of what Forgotten Realms is. Getting needlessly offended because you find it not politically correct to do that with Asian cultures when they've been doing it constantly with European ones for 30+ years is absurd.

 

[Aldarc]

Kara Tur IS a D&D setting. It should be covered by WotC. I've long been frustrated at the lack of support from WotC for the Realms beyond Faerun, for Kara Tur, Maztica, or Zakhara (not to mention Katashaka or Osse, the two continents we've never had anything about other than the vaguest mentions).

Blackmoor, Mystara, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Birthright, Planescape, Ghostwalk, and Nentir Vale are also all D&D settings. What makes Kara Tur worth covering before these other settings?

 

[humble minion]

There's two questions that do kinda bear on the answer, as i see it.

First is 'what brings a bigger audience to D&D'? Will the Asian-inspired MtG settings really bring MtG fans to the game who weren't already in because of Ravnica etc? Nobody outside D&D has ever heard of Kara-Tur. Everyone who's into Rokugan already knows about D&D. Is there another option? Is there some popular fantasy anime series, or Chinese fantasy TV series, or novel series, or something similar that could be used and could possibly interest a wider audience beyond existing D&D fans? I honestly have no idea what's out there in the Chinese/Japanese/etc media world, but if I were WotC I'd be looking for something like that to use as the 'base' setting for my Asian-inspired sourcebook rather than redoing another old gaming property.

(My assumption is that most hardcore D&D fans will buy the thing regardless what world setting it's put in, just to mine it for ideas and mechanics. So I think WotC can safely roll the dice on a relatively unknown-in-the-West IP to try to bring in a new audience)

Second question - is what do people want the actual mechanical content of the book to be? Personally I'd be looking for a bunch of PC races/monsters etc from various Asian mythologies, character options inspired by the same etc. But the inevitable problem is that if you do mine real-life myth for this sort of thing, you either end up with all these characters and critters running around in a nebulous kitchen-sink 'fantasy-Asia' or you end up with relatively transparent fantasy analogs of real-life historical nations. Both of which options are going to annoy people. But so is, for instance, putting out an 'Oriental Adventures' book with no ninja or hopping vampires.

Also, if I look at my older-edition 'Oriental Adventures' etc material - 5e already covers most of the class archetypes they focus on. (I'm assuming here that any 5e designers working in this space will have better sense than to design stuff like the 1e bushi, which is basically 'fighter, but more Asian!') and use the perfectly good existing rulesets when adaptable. Fighters and rogues work anywhere. Monks are a straight ripoff of wuxia anyway. A ninja is an assassin rogue. The sort of unarmoured shaman/monsterhunter/scholar type that's such a mainstay of Chinese fantasy films is a unfulfilled niche in 5e admittedly. Mechanically, a katana is just a longsword, so is a jian, a tetsubo is a maul, etc. A PC yeti race is mechanically just a goliath with hair. A specialised martial arts system on top of the already abstracted D&D melee combat system is asking for trouble imho and I don't think has ever been done well. There's really not a huge amount of major mechanical additions i can see the need for (again, I'm not really an expert on the mythology etc). Do you focus instead on how the existing D&D toolkit is used, by showing how it binds to a specific setting? If so, you circle straight round into the setting question, and the 'mish-mash generic Asian' vs 'rip-offs of real cultures' vs 'I just bought an Oriental Adventure book and it has no ninjas in it, wtf?' dilemma again...

 

[gyor]

Kara Tur IS a D&D setting. It should be covered by WotC. I've long been frustrated at the lack of support from WotC for the Realms beyond Faerun, for Kara Tur, Maztica, or Zakhara (not to mention Katashaka or Osse, the two continents we've never had anything about other than the vaguest mentions).

All D&D settings based on a real-world culture or region have some level of distortion for the sake of making a good gaming setting. Kara Tur is based on East and Southeast Asia. . .but the distortion or stereotypes are just as prominent in Faerun.

The Moonshae Isles are a fantasy version of the British Isles
Amn is based on Inquisition-era Spain
Cormyr is based on an idealized version of Medieval France
Chessenta is based on Ancient Greece
Sembia is based on Renaissance-era Italy
Vaasa is a fantasy version of Finland
Rashemen is a fantasy version of Russia.

Making fantasy analogues of real world cultures is a LOT of what Forgotten Realms is. Getting needlessly offended because you find it not politically correct to do that with Asian cultures when they've been doing it constantly with European ones for 30+ years is absurd.

Excellent post, it's get to see someone who gets it.

There is nothing in offensive in the Kara Tur Campaign Setting, yes it plays to Asian archetypes, but not stereotypes, there is a difference. Btw Asian media does this just as much, you can find Samurai, Yakazua, Bushido, and so on in Anime, TV shows, and so on. And they setting does go beyond those tropes and include unique elements as well such as spelljammers, repressions from the Spellplague, ect...,

Kara Tur also fits better into D&D cosmology.

Btw I would count the Hoardlands Box set as part of Kara Tur books except for the most Western reaches bordering Mulhorand.

 

[gyor]

Blackmoor, Mystara, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Birthright, Planescape, Ghostwalk, and Nentir Vale are also all D&D settings. What makes Kara Tur worth covering before these other settings?

It's better and it's part of the Forgotten Realms.

 

[Aldarc]

It's better and it's part of the Forgotten Realms.

It is true that it is part of the Forgotten Realms, but I don't think that anyone needed to be convinced about that.