Pathfinder 2E Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank

[darjr]

Yea, I’d also argue without the OGL and Pathfinder, 5e wouldn’t be the same. In fact I wouldn’t have been surprised that D&D as a game might be in mothballs now. Maybe.
But being the only game in town 4e might have done better. Though according to some arguments, here and elsewhere, pathfinder didn’t grab 4e players, so they must have just stopped playing. Or just went back to what they liked.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I'm curious, as to what direction system-wise you feel that they should have gone for PF2?

Personally I think that unless they took a big risk and offered something markedly different with what they did d20 system-wise, that they would pretty much be in the same boat that they are in now.

IMHO I think that we'll only see the real fallout for Pazio of PF2 not really catching on 3-5 years down the line. They are already branching out with some 5e material, and in time that may become more of their business than their PF house brand.



This is more my own imperfect thoughts than directed at anyone in particular:

The d20 OGL was the most brilliant move WOTC ever made.

Yeah 4e made people question it a bit with the success of PF. But with out that misstep 5e would probably be a different game.

PF stepped into a good place during 4e because not only had WOTC screwed up with 4e, but largely the non d20 alternatives ability to attract D&D players looking for something different had been long gone from the landscape. With no viable contender in sight to this day.

I take the inability of PF2 to grab any kind of increase in market share from 5e to be a notable data point for my theory that 5e's raging success at attracting new players does not translate into success for the rest of the RPG hobby or "market".

Because IMHO there is no single RPG market. There is the market for D&D. Then there is a epically smaller RPG market for everyone else. Because now even in the "everyone else" category, d20/D&D based systems still compete with other systems for gamers attention.

The 5e explosion is made up of people who want to play 5e. Period.

At Best, the rest of the hobby gets a trickle of new blood from the WOTC stone.

Hard to say at this point. Many people who play 5e are new to RPGs. I think it is safe to say some of these will try other games too.

 

[Jaeger]

... Though according to some arguments, here and elsewhere, pathfinder didn’t grab 4e players, so they must have just stopped playing. Or just went back to what they liked.

PF grabbed players who wanted 3.x to continue. And the few 4e players who tried it then said "Give me back my 3.x!"

Hard to say at this point. Many people who play 5e are new to RPGs. I think it is safe to say some of these will try other games too.

I'm not so sure.

The 5e boom has been in full swing for a while now, and in the various internet fora, at gaming cons, and from the few gaming store anecdotes out there; I've seen no real drive from 5e players to branch out.

As someone who's decades in the hobby has been mostly spent playing systems other than D&D for various reasons. (playing in a 5e game now though). I'm seeing less interest than ever from the D&D side of the hobby for people to cross over to different systems.

Of course it goes without saying (but I will anyway!) - That the majority of the hobby is/was made up of D&D players. And traditionally most D&D players have had no interest in other RPG's than D&D.

In the US anyway that has always been the normal state of affairs.

 

[Parmandur]

Hard to say at this point. Many people who play 5e are new to RPGs. I think it is safe to say some of these will try other games too.

The games most likely to benefit in the long run from that are going to be games that offer something generically different that D&D can't do: hence the recent surge for Call of Cthulu.

 

[darjr]

I wonder if there is a place for high end D&D adventures like Beadle and Grimm but more like the Paizo Adventure Paths

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

PF grabbed players who wanted 3.x to continue. And the few 4e players who tried it then said "Give me back my 3.x!"




I'm not so sure.

The 5e boom has been in full swing for a while now, and in the various internet fora, at gaming cons, and from the few gaming store anecdotes out there; I've seen no real drive from 5e players to branch out.

As someone who's decades in the hobby has been mostly spent playing systems other than D&D for various reasons, (playing in a 5e game now though). I'm seeing less interest than ever from the D&D side of the hobby for people to cross over to different systems.

Of course it goes without saying (but I will anyway!) - That the majority of the hobby is/was made up of D&D players. And traditionally most D&D players have had no interest in other RPG's than D&D.

In the US anyway that has always been the normal state of affairs.

Sometime is takes time. I played D&D for 15 yrs before I tried Call of Cthulhu and Vampire

 

[Jaeger]

The games most likely to benefit in the long run from that are going to be games that offer something generically different that D&D can't do: hence the recent surge for Call of Cthulu.

Sometime is takes time. I played D&D for 15 yrs before I tried Call of Cthulhu and Vampire

The argument I would make is that CoC aside, (which is still a tiny sideshow) unlike the in the 90's most of the "Adventure game" alternatives have Zero market presence. Through a combination of mismanagement and then the d20 phenomenon, games like Vampire, are on varying degrees of life support.

At least in the RPG sphere their used to be relatively well know alternatives to D&D for adventure gaming. Most D&D players naturally had no interest in them, but most at least heard of games like Champions, Vampire, Shadowrun, Warhammer, RuneQuest, Cyberpunk, Traveller, etc... They were to varying degrees all part of the general RPG discussion.

The stars of all those properties have seriously faded. Even on general rpg forums.

And no new properties have risen up to take their place. In fact the only game that could make that claim is Pathfinder - which is a D&D clone!

The market presence of D&D has grown almost in proportion to its bottom line. Everything else is deeper in its shadow than they have ever been. Now days you have to explicitly go looking for D&D alternatives. And that's assuming that most people who came into the hobby via 5e will even know to look.

 

[darjr]

Eh, the boom has helped other games. Cthulhu got a huge boost when Critical Role played it. There are more published authors making money now because of DMsGuild alone then probably ever before. That ain’t nothing. Zhiewhander (sp) a clone of a much older game was the third highest selling rpg on Amazon for a while, till Cthulhu surpassed them.
Is isn’t very spectacular, except maybe in the growth of the DMsGuild, but it is there.

 

[darjr]

oh! And Goodman games making the OAR books, their most successful products ever.

 

[Jaeger]

Eh, the boom has helped other games. Cthulhu got a huge boost when Critical Role played it.

Exactly.

It took one of D&D's best known media presences playing a 30+ year old RPG to give it any wings with new players...

There are more published authors making money now because of DMsGuild alone then probably ever before. That ain’t nothing

DMsGuild = Dungeon Master Guild.

Great for D&D.

Worth less than nothing for non-D&D games.

oh! And Goodman games making the OAR books, their most successful products ever.

Yes, retreading beloved modules for 5e D&D.

Great for D&D....

..."Second verse same as the first"...

Zhiewhander (sp) a clone of a much older game was the third highest selling rpg on Amazon for a while, till Cthulhu surpassed them.

If you look into his background, the creator of Zweihander had personal publishing connections that enabled him to get his game out there into brick and mortar bookstores; that basically no one else in the industry has.

The very definition of: The exception that proves the rule.

.