D&D 5E 4-Element monks are the only monk archetype that excels against flying enemies

[Asisreo]

There is no monk archetype that "excels" against flying enemies. Water Whip has some nice tactical uses, but the range cripples it; if you can draw the flying creature within 30 feet of you, you can probably draw it into melee range, too. A flying spellcaster or archer, or a dragon using strafing tactics, is never going to get that close of its own free will.

Well, not necessarily. In order for a melee flyer to attack you, they must be within their reach. That's obvious but every single melee flyer has a reach less than 30ft. That means that a monk could ready WW for when they get close, or better, when they're just about to leave the range of WW since they can't use their movement to get up before your next turn.

A spellcaster can get screwed if the monk casts hold person on them. You're right that an archer won't get within 60ft if they can help it, but a flying monk will get to force them into melee, something I'm sure they wouldn't want. A dragon is absolutely going to get within melee because he's not going to wait for ranged attackers and spellcasters to pelt them while they wait 2-4 rounds to get their breath weapon back.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Ok, this conversation keeps getting more and more bizarre.

Ignoring this specific example, are you agreeing with @Flamestrike that if an encounter would be trivialized by flight, even though you don't have flight in your game, it's bad encounter design?

If it drained some amount of party resources, it is a good encounter design. Just putting an arbitrary wall across the road can be a good encounter IF it drains some of the party resources for them to get over it.

You have to keep in mind, as the GM, what the party abilities are, the situation the party is in, and what happened both before and after the encounter to determine if it was an actual drain on resources.

An encounter that is just a random wall across a road isn't a good encounter if....

-the party can ignore the wall without expending resources at all (they all have flying boots or its an easy climb and they all have rope and plenty of time)

-the party can ignore the wall without expending resources for that adventuring day (they break camp, use a warlock spell to all get over the wall, short rest, carry on with the hour wasted not making a difference to the story)

In your example...the party is facing 2 goblins behind barricades with caltrops defending the barricades...I don't think that is a trivial encounter. Now..if the entire party of 1st level character could fly without using resources for some reason the barricades and the caltrops become set dressing and the 2 goblins is the only actual "encounter" at that point. While its very easy....its not "nothing".




*edited to expand my thoughts.

 

[Dausuul]

Well, not necessarily. In order for a melee flyer to attack you, they must be within their reach. That's obvious but every single melee flyer has a reach less than 30ft. That means that a monk could ready WW for when they get close, or better, when they're just about to leave the range of WW since they can't use their movement to get up before your next turn.

A flying foe that closes to melee range is already risking OAs each time it breaks contact, unless it has flyby, which is rare. If you are the person being attacked, you can drop a Stunning Strike on that OA if it hits. It costs half the ki and is utterly devastating if it works. If you're not the person being attacked, there is no guarantee you're going to be within 30 feet of that person, either.

A spellcaster can get screwed if the monk casts hold person on them.

How often do you face flying humanoid spellcasters?

You're right that an archer won't get within 60ft if they can help it, but a flying monk will get to force them into melee, something I'm sure they wouldn't want.

Okay, hang on a second. That's three different disciplines you've tossed out here, one of which isn't available until 11th level.

This is what, in wizard theorycrafting circles, is known as Schrodinger's Wizard: The wizard whose prepared spell list is indeterminate until there's an encounter, at which point the waveform collapses into whichever spell just happens to be perfectly suited to that encounter. And wizards get many times the number of prepared spells that monks get disciplines. Are you going to devote every single one of your discipline picks to dealing with flying enemies? If so, that's not exactly a compelling case for the Four Elements monk.

 

[Asisreo]

A flying foe that closes to melee range is already risking OAs each time it breaks contact, unless it has flyby, which is rare. If you are the person being attacked, you can drop a Stunning Strike on that OA if it hits. It costs half the ki and is utterly devastating if it works. If you're not the person being attacked, there is no guarantee you're going to be within 30 feet of that person, either.

As I've said in this thread, flying enemies usually have a reach larger than 5ft, disabling OA from stunning strike. A monk should be near their ally spellcasters, since they're the prime target to be attacked with their weaker defenses and the fact they're high damage. Their priority. But if they're 10ft away from the spellcaster you're adjacent to, they're at least 30ft away from you.

How often do you face flying humanoid spellcasters?

As a player? I've never been in a campaign that hasn't had a flying humanoid. As a DM, next session my players are going to be fighting cultists riding giant bats as mounts. My party is level 3 so they can handle it.

Okay, hang on a second. That's three different disciplines you've tossed out here, one of which isn't available until 11th level.

Yeah, that's how many you get at level 11. Actually you get 4 disciplines at 11. Before level 11, you could use your elemental attunement to create makeshift darts. Or use a shortbow. You're basically doing that for open hand and shadow monks, too. At level 11, though, you get a massive mobility buff.

This is what, in wizard theorycrafting circles, is known as Schrodinger's Wizard: The wizard whose prepared spell list is indeterminate until there's an encounter, at which point the waveform collapses into whichever spell just happens to be perfectly suited to that encounter. And wizards get many times the number of prepared spells that monks get disciplines. Are you going to devote every single one of your discipline picks to dealing with flying enemies? If so, that's not exactly a compelling case for the Four Elements monk.

I mean, yeah, I would. I wouldn't say 4-Elemonks excel against flying enemies if I didn't spec like they did. Here's exactly how I would build: I'd take Unbroken Air at 3rd because flying enemies with high strength at this level is rare. 6th level, I'd get hold person, for those spellcasters. At 11th level, I'd switch EA for fly, I'd take fire snakes to extend my mobility and reach to basically anything in any battle. At 17th level, I'd take wall of stone and trade my Clench of North Wind with cone of cold.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

As I've said in this thread, flying enemies usually have a reach larger than 5ft, disabling OA from stunning strike.

If someone is deadset on creating an anti-aircraft build for a monk you could still also go with a Kensai and pick Whip(to stunning strike at 10' for melee attacking flying beasties) and Longbow (to range out to 600').

Also a net as an added weapon (using feats or background or whatever) would help any monk defend the air regardless of type.

Dedicating a monk to anti-air (but ignoring the existance of flying items) seems a bit like square peg/round hole to me but I guess if you are having fun go for it.

 

[Mecheon]

Even after they burn most of their ki, a 4 elements monk is still a Monk.
i.e. a martial character with decent base damage and incredible resistance and mobility. 4 elements monks aren't primary spellcasters like warlocks or wizards. They're half-casters like Rangers and Paladins, and their capabilities and resources should be compared against that of those classes.

And any other monk isn't going to have burnt off that much ki that quickly. That's the Four Element's monk failing: It is resource -hungry- and doesn't get enough of that resource. Its a workable class, but it'll be outdone by other monks. If we're comparing it to pallies and rangers, then we'd have to equate burning off half of your spell slots

 

[Asisreo]

And any other monk isn't going to have burnt off that much ki that quickly. That's the Four Element's monk failing: It is resource -hungry- and doesn't get enough of that resource. Its a workable class, but it'll be outdone by other monks. If we're comparing it to pallies and rangers, then we'd have to equate burning off half of your spell slots

But getting them all back on a short rest. That's the thing, you only need to do one super elemental thing like cast fly in an encounter to turn the tides. Afterwards, you get to do regular monk stuff for the, what? 1-2 more rounds before combat ends? Then you can do it again next combat, or something else, and replenish with a short rest.

Ki isn't a daily resource and should not be compared with daily resources.

 

[Fenris-77]

Even with Ki as a SR resource the 4 Elements Monk suffers by not really having enough batteries to power all it's toys. It's almost a really cool subclass, but not quite. It needs slightly cheaper Ki costs to really hum.

By the by, comparing SR to LR resources is fine, it's not exactly apples and oranges. It will, for example, do a wonderful job showing how the Warlock is actually pretty balanced as far as spell levels cast per day compared to the other full casters. I get that they aren't the same, but that doesn't mean you can't compare them at all.

 

[Asisreo]

Even with Ki as a SR resource the 4 Elements Monk suffers by not really having enough batteries to power all it's toys. It's almost a really cool subclass, but not quite. It needs slightly cheaper Ki costs to really hum.

By the by, comparing SR to LR resources is fine, it's not exactly apples and oranges. It will, for example, do a wonderful job showing how the Warlock is actually pretty balanced as far as spell levels cast per day compared to the other full casters. I get that they aren't the same, but that doesn't mean you can't compare them at all.

If you want to compare them, fine, but understand that if you're going less than an adventuring day with 2-3 combat encounters, the monk will have more than enough juice with one short rest in-between. If you're running the full adventuring day, take the amount of Ki points a monk has and triple it, since it's assumed that a party gets 2 short rests evenly spaced in these scenarios. And understand that short rests are not limited by time, meaning you can take a short rest as many times as you want in a day.

It's not hard at all to get a short rest, especially if you have a rope-trick wizard.

 

[Fenris-77]

Um, yeah, I know how to multiply SR resources and how that relates to a full adventuring day or parts thereof. I'm also fully aware that in some games SR classes get the sticky end for a variety of reasons. I'm a big fan or Warlocks and Monks though, so my games tend to longer adventuring days (6+ encounters) and the suggested 2-1 rest ratio. More or less SR tends to unbalance one set of classes or another.