D&D 5E 4-Element monks are the only monk archetype that excels against flying enemies

[Flamestrike]

As an example, the second campaign I've ever run in 5e, the party came across a goblin village with high walls. When I wrote the encounter 2 months prior, I expected the PC's to have to negotiate with the goblins, if they made the goblins mad, they'd pelt them from the high walls with their shortbows. I suspected it would be quite the incentive to negotiate and not just attack. Well, I let a player play an Aarockra and it turned out quite different as they didn't even say a word to the goblins as he clobbered them a bit and opened the gate from the inside, effectively turning what I balanced into a one-sided beatdown.

See my tower example above.

You (the DM) failed to take into account the abilities of your players characters. They didnt trivialise your encounter; you did when you designed the encounter and failed to account for a PC ability.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

As an example, the second campaign I've ever run in 5e, the party came across a goblin village with high walls. When I wrote the encounter 2 months prior, I expected the PC's to have to negotiate with the goblins, if they made the goblins mad, they'd pelt them from the high walls with their shortbows. I suspected it would be quite the incentive to negotiate and not just attack. Well, I let a player play an Aarockra and it turned out quite different as they didn't even say a word to the goblins as he clobbered them a bit and opened the gate from the inside, effectively turning what I balanced into a one-sided beatdown.

This example confuses me. At one point you had enough goblins on the walls to fight the entire party, as that was an anticipated course of action by the PCs. Then a single PC flew over the wall and fought their way solo through the goblins that were designed to battle the whole party.

Shouldn't the goblins have easily overwhelmed a single PC if they were a fair match for 3-5 PCs?

This is similar to the previous goblin/barricade/caltrop encounter and I'm confused just as much why getting over the barrier is fast forwarded to GAME OVER for the goblins. In my games, if a single PC tries to solo a combat designed for the whole group...they aren't going to have an easy time and will most likely end up dead.

This is why I am saying that flying in these particular cases doesn't make the encounter trivial. They still have to deal with whatever is on the other side and are doing so at potentially overwhelming odds.

 

[Asisreo]

This example confuses me. At one point you had enough goblins on the walls to fight the entire party, as that was an anticipated course of action by the PCs. Then a single PC flew over the wall and fought their way solo through the goblins that were designed to battle the whole party.

Shouldn't the goblins have easily overwhelmed a single PC if they were a fair match for 3-5 PCs?

This is similar to the previous goblin/barricade/caltrop encounter and I'm confused just as much why getting over the barrier is fast forwarded to GAME OVER for the goblins. In my games, if a single PC tries to solo a combat designed for the whole group...they aren't going to have an easy time and will most likely end up dead.

This is why I am saying that flying in these particular cases doesn't make the encounter trivial. They still have to deal with whatever is on the other side and are doing so at potentially overwhelming odds.

Well, he won initiative and hit a goblin on his way back to the ground. Afterwards, he used his interaction to open the gates.

The difficulty in the encounter was the limited ranged abilities of the party and the goblins having half-cover over the wall. Since they didn't have to worry about it, the few goblins got rocked.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Well, he won initiative and hit a goblin on his way back to the ground. Afterwards, he used his interaction to open the gates.

The difficulty in the encounter was the limited ranged abilities of the party and the goblins having half-cover over the wall. Since they didn't have to worry about it, the few goblins got rocked.

That is a much less guarded and faster/easier opening gate than I'd have pictured, so that explains it.

 

[Asisreo]

That is a much less guarded and faster/easier opening gate than I'd have pictured, so that explains it.

It was made by goblins, they're not my idea of "true craftsmen" . I even had it as a DC 13 strength check to break it down as an action from the other side.

 

[Guest 6801328]

My point regarding flight and it trivialising encounters, is that if flight is trivialising your encounters, you're designing your encounters wrong.

You shouldnt be afraid of PCs with flight trivialising encounters, any more that you would be afraid of PCs with fireball trivialising encounters.

....

If I have an entire party of flying PCs (and my last campaign featured just that from mid level to 20th+) and they're trivialising encounters, you're designing your encounters wrong.

Ahhhh....so the absence of the subjunctive was a clue, after all.

Just in case it's not entirely clear: no, I'm not having a problem with flight trivializing my encounters. Neither am I worried about it happening.

I'm not down on the fly spell because I'm afraid of what it will do to my encounters. I'm down on it because I just think it's cheesy, and I enjoy the sorts of challenges that can easily be avoided by flying.

When I'm playing with flying PCs, I design different encounters. Of course.

When I played D&D in middle school we played the kind of gonzo high-fantasy you were describing earlier, where we found magic items we wanted in the DMG and the goal of our adventures was to acquire those items. Or the gold to buy them. Or whatever. We were superpowered superheroes, and we rode dragons and traveled planes and defeated gods and accumulated troves of magic items.

And I got tired of it. Now I like low-magic games, where the challenges can be solved with cleverness, not superpowers. And where the appearance of a magic item is cause for excitement.

YMMV.

 

[Flamestrike]

Now I like low-magic games, where the challenges can be solved with cleverness, not superpowers. And where the appearance of a magic item is cause for excitement.

Thats totally cool, but why 5E? Its a game of gonzo highpowered superheroes.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

It was made by goblins, they're not my idea of "true craftsmen" . I even had it as a DC 13 strength check to break it down as an action from the other side.

I was picturing the classic giant beam across the doorway. Not high tech but bulky and slow to remove. I also pictured two door guards by the door and 6-8 on the walls with bows. You wouldn't fly-kill-open in one round of my game. You would also have to have the rest of the party far away or well hidden or the goblins would be weapons ready.

This is why we can disagree on what is trivial.

 

[Asisreo]

See my tower example above.

You (the DM) failed to take into account the abilities of your players characters. They didnt trivialise your encounter; you did when you designed the encounter and failed to account for a PC ability.

This whole discussion is besides the point of the thread, to be honest. RAW, there's no way to get a monk to fly without DM permission or multiclassing, which is my point.

Magic items can cover any weakness of any class. A wizard can get a wand of fireballs at some point down the line or a wand of counterspell. That does not mean that telling a wizard to get fireball, in general, is a bad pick.

There's still the fact that 4-Elemonks are the only monks that can cast AoE spells with high damage output starting from level 3 and their options get better at a faster rate than sun soul. At 3rd level, you'll have an expected damage output of 6d6 damage spread across two targets for 2 Ki points, which I consider an efficient use of Ki. At 11th level, they can get fireball as an AoE, that's 32d6 damage across 4 expected targets for 4 Ki points, increasing efficiency even more.

They still get their anti-air options. And they still get their single-target stunning strike combo. They've gained better options.

 

[Asisreo]

I was picturing the classic giant beam across the doorway. Not high tech but bulky and slow to remove. I also pictured two door guards by the door and 6-8 on the walls with bows. You wouldn't fly-kill-open in one round of my game. You would also have to have the rest of the party far away or well hidden or the goblins would be weapons ready.

This is why we can disagree on what is trivial.

Yeah, it wasn't meant to be the world's most difficult challenge, but it was meant to have them at least lose a couple of hit points. I've hardened my heart as a DM since then, though. Now, I just throw together what's cool and makes sense and my players are meant to figure out how they're going to survive it.