D&D 5E Is Neil Gaiman Wrong?

[Maxperson]

The comment being replied to suggested that the game was only about superheroic play, and anyone who played any differently or expected anything different might as well not play. That was what prompted the 'wrong' commentary - the suggestion that other play styles were impossible using the core books. The reply then asked are all the options for other modes of play wrong? It was never about the superhero version being wrong, either implicitly or explicitly, but rather about the assertion that the game couldn't be anything other than that without being wrong. So when you slide in a start talking about divisions, and the 'core' versus the 'options' it seems as though you support the notion that no other play style is possible, and, unfortunately from the tone of the posts in question, that anyone who thinks any different is some kind of idiot.

You can see why I'd ask, right?

Sure, but I'd also think that after the first 2 or 3 times I said that wasn't what I was saying, you'd stop asking and take my word for it that I wasn't saying that. I mean, it really should only take my saying so once.

 

[Fenris-77]

Sure, but I'd also think that after the first 2 or 3 times I said that wasn't what I was saying, you'd stop asking and take my word for it that I wasn't saying that. I mean, it really should only take my saying so once.

OK, no sweat. I didn't get that from your posts. I did read them though, I promise. Nothing to see here apparently, moving along... Thanks for humoring me.

 

[Maxperson]

OK, no sweat. I didn't get that from your posts. I did read them though, I promise. Nothing to see here apparently, moving along... Thanks for humoring me.

No worries! Glad we got it cleared up.

 

[Oofta]

Wizard: Genius level IQ. Capable of teleporting to places, arriving far faster than Iron Man can fly there. Able to bend relity, displacing mountains, turn Iron Man's suit into an Armani that is incapable of stopping any weapon, etc.



Cleric. Able to control lightning and weather, walk on the wind, hurt Thor with a +1 weapon, raise the dead(which Thor cannot do), etc.



Hulk does not have a genius level IQ. Banner does and he's not in control more of the time than he is in control. He's also not invulnerable, just really hard to hurt. An artifact or even a +3 weapon, which high level PCs have should be sufficient to hurt him. The Hulk is probably on par with a Tarrasque, which high level groups defeat.



And would likely get his butt wiped by a high level barbarian in a fight. He's a giant. PCs beat giants all the time.


Wish can make those things happen. Edit: Armor of Invulnerability and probably a few other things can make one invulnerable to mundane weapons.

A few PCs can mimic some of the minor abilities, but cannot match the top tier abilities or do them all day long like superheroes can. Yes, PCs flying is not that unusual but it's not at supersonic speed nor is it all day long for most PCs. They can't toss around tanks, bend reality at the level that superheroes do (depending on comic). Being invulnerable to mundane weapons requires a legendary suit of armor I've never heard of.

We're not even talking Superman level of silly power here where he's extinguishing suns or towing around multiple planets. Hulk is effectively unkillable and immortal while also having a genius level IQ depending on version.

PCs do of course have access to magic which most superheroes do not so at a certain point you're comparing apples to oranges.

In any case ... whatever. I really, really don't care, I just completely disagree.

 

[Maxperson]

A few PCs can mimic some of the minor abilities, but cannot match the top tier abilities or do them all day long like superheroes can. Yes, PCs flying is not that unusual but it's not at supersonic speed nor is it all day long for most PCs. They can't toss around tanks, bend reality at the level that superheroes do (depending on comic). Being invulnerable to mundane weapons requires a legendary suit of armor I've never heard of.

Minor abilities? It takes a Cosmic Cube to match Wish. Very few heroes can teleport. Fewer even than that can raise the dead. Hurling energy is a common hero power. Half the classes in the PHB can do it.

We're not even talking Superman level of silly power here where he's extinguishing suns or towing around multiple planets. Hulk is effectively unkillable and immortal while also having a genius level IQ depending on version.

Why would we have to talk about Superman or even the Hulk? It's has been easily proven that PCs are as powerful as superheroes. Even if they aren't as powerful as the most powerful, they are as powerful or more powerful, depending on level, than many if not most superheroes and villains.

It's telling that you left out Hawkeye, Black Widow, Nightcrawler and the vast majority of heroes and villains, which are in that power range. Relatively few are Thor, Hulk, Superman, etc.

PCs do of course have access to magic which most superheroes do not so at a certain point you're comparing apples to oranges.

Nope. Comparing Granny Smith Apples(non-magical super powers) to Golden Delicious Apples(magic super powers). They're all powers. The power source differs.

 

[Oofta]

Minor abilities? It takes a Cosmic Cube to match Wish. Very few heroes can teleport. Fewer even than that can raise the dead. Hurling energy is a common hero power. Half the classes in the PHB can do it.



Why would we have to talk about Superman or even the Hulk? It's has been easily proven that PCs are as powerful as superheroes. Even if they aren't as powerful as the most powerful, they are as powerful or more powerful, depending on level, than many if not most superheroes and villains.

It's telling that you left out Hawkeye, Black Widow, Nightcrawler and the vast majority of heroes and villains, which are in that power range. Relatively few are Thor, Hulk, Superman, etc.



Nope. Comparing Granny Smith Apples(non-magical super powers) to Golden Delicious Apples(magic super powers). They're all powers. The power source differs.

Why not talk about Superman or the Hulk? They're superheroes, are they not? It's an incredibly broad spectrum.

I did include Hawkeye and Black Widow (along with Captain America) as examples of the power level that PCs could achieve back a few posts. I just think the top tier members of the Avengers are far more powerful than any individual PC could ever be. They're certainly far, far stronger.

But this is a pointless argument. Might as well discuss whether Batman could defeat Superman. Well, except that answer is obvious.

 

[Fenris-77]

To detach a single point, I think its very appropriate to compare fantasy magic and super's powers. Both things do the same job in their respective genres.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

A few PCs can mimic some of the minor abilities, but cannot match the top tier abilities or do them all day long like superheroes can. Yes, PCs flying is not that unusual but it's not at supersonic speed nor is it all day long for most PCs. They can't toss around tanks, bend reality at the level that superheroes do (depending on comic). Being invulnerable to mundane weapons requires a legendary suit of armor I've never heard of.

We're not even talking Superman level of silly power here where he's extinguishing suns or towing around multiple planets. Hulk is effectively unkillable and immortal while also having a genius level IQ depending on version.

PCs do of course have access to magic which most superheroes do not so at a certain point you're comparing apples to oranges.

In any case ... whatever. I really, really don't care, I just completely disagree.

Wait is your position that because you can find things the avengers can do that PCs can’t...the PCs aren’t superhuman?

That makes sense, to you?

 

[Oofta]

Wait is your position that because you can find things the avengers can do that PCs can’t...the PCs aren’t superhuman?

That makes sense, to you?

Umm ... yes? Are the PCs exceptional? Sure. Are they beyond what most people can imagine? Absolutely. Then again I can't imagine running as fast as Usain Bolt. Some gymnasts do things that to me seem physically impossible. I have no concept of how someone could deadlift over a thousand pounds but the record is 500 kg. PCs can go beyond even that at level 20, but in most cases it's because of magic or supernatural abilities (i.e. barbarian's ancestral spirits, monk's ki and so on).

Then there's superhero characters such as Superman that are ludicrously overpowered depending on the writer and version. There are versions of him extinguishing suns and towing around entire planets. Some superheroes are literally gods, or may as well be.

In my experience level 20 PCs are not that powerful. They are as powerful as some superheroes, I gave my examples.

But you know what? I'm done. This is a silly argument about perspectives and opinions about imaginary characters.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I also think that "super heroism" is partly about class choices. Warlocks feel like superheroes to me from very early levels relative to Champion fighters and Berserker barbarians.

Which superheroes though? Berserker Barbarians with their advantage on STR checks and potentially attacking twice as fast as other people (at early levels) certainly feel quite like a lot of "street level" superheroes, and honestly Warlocks aren't that far ahead of Dagger from Cloak and Dagger, so they're pretty "street level" too, in superhero terms.