D&D 5E WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty.

@ThinkingDM Look at the treatment orcs received in Eberron and Exandria. Dropped the Intelligence debuff and the evil alignment, with a more acceptable narrative. It's a start, but there's a fair argument for gutting the entire race system.

The orcs of Eberron and Wildemount reflect where our hearts are and indicate where we’re heading.

@vorpaldicepress I hate to be "that guy", but what about Drow, Vistani, and the other troublesome races and cultures in Forgotten Realms (like the Gur, another Roma-inspired race)? Things don't change over night, but are these on the radar?

The drow, Vistani, and many other folk in the game are on our radar. The same spirit that motivated our portrayal of orcs in Eberron is animating our work on all these peoples.

@MileyMan1066 Good. These problems need to be addressed. The variant features UA could have a sequel that includes notes that could rectify some of the problems and help move 5e in a better direction.

Addressing these issues is vital to us. Eberron and Wildemount are the first of multiple books that will face these issues head on and will do so from multiple angles.

@mbriddell I'm happy to hear that you are taking a serious look at this. Do you feel that you can achieve this within the context of Forgotten Realms, given how establised that world's lore is, or would you need to establish a new setting to do this?

Thankfully, the core setting of D&D is the multiverse, with its multitude of worlds. We can tell so many different stories, with different perspectives, in each world. And when we return to a world like FR, stories can evolve. In short, even the older worlds can improve.

@SlyFlourish I could see gnolls being treated differently in other worlds, particularly when they’re a playable race. The idea that they’re spawned hyenas who fed on demon-touched rotten meat feels like they’re in a different class than drow, orcs, goblins and the like. Same with minotaurs.

Internally, we feel that the gnolls in the MM are mistyped. Given their story, they should be fiends, not humanoids. In contrast, the gnolls of Eberron are humanoids, a people with moral and cultural expansiveness.

@MikeyMan1066 I agree. Any creature with the Humanoid type should have the full capacity to be any alignmnet, i.e., they should have free will and souls. Gnolls... the way they are described, do not. Having them be minor demons would clear a lot of this up.

You just described our team's perspective exactly.

As a side-note, the term 'race' is starting to fall out of favor in tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder has "ancestry", and other games use terms like "heritage"); while he doesn't comment on that specifically, he doesn't use the word 'race' and instead refers to 'folks' and 'peoples'.

 

[Haldrik]

There are at least four human genders.

• Male
• Female
• Both male and female (androgynous)
• Neither male nor female (nonbinary)

The ancient world is aware of all four genders.

 

[Flamestrike]

In al-Qadim lots of monsters races are living within the civilitation. A half-ogre in the city with a decent job is perfectly possible.

al-Quadim has its own problems with how it portrays [fantasy not Arabs] and [fantasy not Islamic culture] in sweeping stereotyping.

There is a reason it hasnt been revisited for some time now.

 

[Envisioner]

The term "gender dysphoria" is blatantly trans-phobic.

Most ancient cultures are aware and welcoming of individuals that self-identify the other gender.

Transgender individuals have always been part of the human species.

The issue is not what someone "self-identifies" as (I won't get into that, that's a big long discussion that wiser people than me have been covering for years now). The issue is whether someone constantly wants to kill themselves because they perceive the body that they were born in as being so wrong that they'd rather die than continue existing that way. If such a person exists in D&D world, they have basically no access to any option that will help them deal with that condition. I would rather state that people simply aren't born with that condition in my D&D world, the same way I don't have anyone in my D&D world born with a cleft lip that requires palate surgery to correct. There are some parts of the real world that I'd rather keep out of my wish-fulfillment fantasies.

Mod Note: Note - not all transgender people suffer from gender dysmorphia. The implication that this is the general state for transgender people is yet another inaccurate stereotype. Those of us who are not transgender, nor experts in mental health or support of the trans community, probably should not assert what the transgender experience for characters in games would be, in general. ~Umbran

 

[TheSword]

They (culture/ race/ ethnicity) are basically the same thing. Race (among humans) is a social construct. Biological race does not exist.

You dont see a problem with a rule or assumption of: [culture/ ethnic group X] is [predominantly peoples of skin colour Y] and those people have the following inherent traits [bonus or penalty to Intelligence, favoured class barbarian or noble, propensity for particular alignments and behaviours etc]?

I would absolutely have zero hesitation in calling such a rule racist in the extreme.

Birthright literally had people of who tend to look and dress and speak and culturally resemble Western Germanic Europeans being inherently wiser and more civilised and than people that looked, and dressed, and spoke and culturally resembled people of Slavic/ Russian origin (who copped an inherent penalty to Intelligence, and tended to be barbarians).

No Godwin here, but that's literally the identical justification for Lebenstraum and the ethnic cleansing of Russia used by Hitler.

I've seen worse racism creep into games before. But that was right up there.

Its quite rare that I say this but you are just wrong on pretty much every count here.

Culture is about ideas, customs, values and social behaviour. It is totally independent of ethnicity - though some ethnicities may have specific cultures.

Making differences between characters being based on culture not ethnicity or race allows people to make choices and excercise free will, while still allowing us to recognise that there are differences. As a european who travels a lot in Europe I can absolutely say there are differences in ideas customs and social behaviours between the French, Spanish, British, German and Italian cultures. It is a fact! They are not overwhelming and there are exceptions of course but society does change values and what is encouraged.

I dont think you have read much about Birthright, or maybe have just relied on a skim read of a fanpage. The Anuireans (your western germanic Europeans - whatever that means) are absolutely not more civilised than the Khinasi (far more educated) for instance or the Brecht (far more advanced technologically) whatever civilised means. As I said, they are absolutely not the standard of success in fact are seen as fairly ineffectual. One of the classic goals of Birthright campaign was to create a kingdom that would capitalise on that.

As I have said, the Vos people focus on war and not intellectual persuits because they are surrounded by monsters in a environmentally challenging climate not because they a racially stupid! You have the ability to play those kingdoms and make them what ever you want. The Vos were originally the servants of the God of Magic.

Your characterisations are pretty disengenious and ill informed. As is bringing Godwin into the discussion.

Edit - Skin colour really is irrelevent when looking at culture, unless you're talking about over lapping cultures. I have no problem with a rule that says people who are raised in X culture have an inherant bonus in X (I would prefer to avoid penalties because players dont like penalties, theyre not fun) and are more likely to be Y. I dont think skin colour needs to come into it at all.

I don't see how this is any different to Uthgardt Tribes, Sembian Merchants, Dales Farmers or any of the other cultural regions in the Forgotten Realms.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I imagine it's a huge overlap with the folks furious that Insomniac would make a Miles Morales Spider-Man game as well.

Who is against Miles Morales? (Wait, that's rhetorical, I don't want to know, because that would make me sad ....)

I like Peter Parker as much as the next person, but Miles Morales is a great Spider-Man!

 

[Olrox17]

I didn’t read the whole thread, but I’m going to say this.
I’m not American. I don’t like when current American political debate ends up interfering with the game. I didn’t like it with the satanic panic, I don’t like it now.
Please, let fantasy be fantasy.

 

[Flamestrike]

The issue is not what someone "self-identifies" as (I won't get into that, that's a big long discussion that wiser people than me have been covering for years now). The issue is whether someone constantly wants to kill themselves because they perceive the body that they were born in as being so wrong that they'd rather die than continue existing that way.

You might want to weigh out of this thread mate. You're not covering yourself with glory here. There are assumptions in your post here that are really troubling.

 

[TheSword]

I also, I dont want a token gay guy, just like I dont want a token black guy.

I want living members of a living community.

As a gay man, with at least one of my weekly groups being composed entirely of gay men and women I'm pretty comfortable with the inclusion of a gay NPC in every campaign.

There are dozens of NPCs in every book that arent determined either way and you are free to bump up the numbers to something more representational if you want.

If nothing else, this thread shows we have bigger fish to fry.

 

[Oofta]

How about "species"? The notion of 'race' is a construct, anyway, and within actual humanity means nothing beyond appearance (that is, it's not tied to behavior or moral or intellectual capacity, like 19th Century 'racialists' believed). And for blended species, like half-whatever, it's easy: a hand-wave of "different species can interbreed in the magical world."

It's actually called out in the base lore that orcs are magically blessed to be fertile. Elves cross-breed because elves are just better than everyone else or something about being more adaptable.

 

[Dire Bare]

I didn't say culture at all. Not once in that post.......I am not talking about culture. I thought that was clear. I hope now it is. There are huge differences in culture that will manifest in differences in attributes. That wasn't my question.......

If all humanoids have the same racial stats and abilities, and only their appearance marks them as different, aren't they just humans at that point?

You're right, we probably agree more than we disagree. It's a tough conversation within our community, and even with ourselves as individuals. Then add on the difficulty of internet forum conversation . . . . . but it's a good conversation to have, if hard.

I did misunderstand your post, and I apologize.

We do tend to conflate the term "race" with "species" in D&D . . . . but that is part of the problem. IRL, humans are the only intelligent, sapient species we've (knowingly) stumbled across. Mythic stories of elves, dwarves, and trolls spring from how ancient peoples tried to make sense out of their environment, nature, and . . . . other differing tribal groups. Our fantasy concept of elves and orcs (etc) very much spring from how we view other cultures and ethnicities IRL . . . . and a lot of that is racist (if unintentionally so) and carried over into the game.

Are elves a different species all together from humans? That's debatable, both in terms of "fantasy evolution" and in how the races interact and view each other in-universe, and how we view them from a meta-perspective.

Even with mechanical differences, the complaint that elves are just sexy humans with pointy ears is a not uncommon complaint! So what really differentiates elves from humans in your campaign? A +2 to dexterity and a +1 to intelligence? I would argue that defining a strong elven culture makes the elves in my campaign truly different from their human neighbors, regardless if I use stat adjustments at character creation.

And, most of us aren't talking about removing all mechanical game differences from the fantasy races leaving only descriptions of culture and ethnicity. Of course that begs the question, where do we draw that line? Which mechanical differences are okay and which are not? I'm still wrestling with that one myself, I don't have an answer for it yet. I'm definitely becoming less and less a fan of stat adjustments based on race. We've already ditched them for gender, let's keep going!