D&D 5E The Minds of Monsters

[Minigiant]

I like your idea,
so in the other thread it would be simple to propose
Orc, medium humanoid
vs
Orc, medium fiend

Medium fiend (orc) for the Classic orc. The LOTR orcs. They are always evil monster of corruption who cannot comprehend good. Their survival is usually linked to a dark god or some other force they venerate which keeps their war engines humming.

Medium humanoid (orc) for the Modern orc. The Warcraft orcs. They have the same minds as a human with their own cultures and societies. They make settlements and form relations with other beings. They can form brutal tribes or civilized kingdoms.

Medium giant (orc) for the Mixed orc. The HOMM orc. They are small giants. Might makes right. Strength is power. They form societies but their culures can't progress on its own. Their minds are half Id and half Superego. Primal desire and Place in society is all they care about. They can think but it is a bit strange.

Medium plant (orc) for the Blight orc. The Warhammer orc. These orcs are thinking plauges with strange mindsets. Entire concepts are foreign to them as they exist to grow and take territory. Their bizarre physiology also them to express their bizarre mindset.

Here's an idea: How would you describe is a Fey orc?

EDIT:
Just got an idea. Imagine a orc as an monstrosity. Some combination of creatures. Traditionally orcs are porcine so a monstrosity orc would be a half man half pig. It would have a basis mindset of a man but the rage and hunger of a boar would be in the forebrain. These orcs would all about consuming and getting mad. They desire food and fly into a frenzy if they are stopped or hunger. When calm they mind return to their childlike brains which could be reasoned with. Sorta like the Hulk. The green hulk.

So if that's the Green Hulk, maybe the Grey Hulk is the fey orc. Tricky, manipulative, brutal, and willing to do what a civilized humaniod wont do. They know they have the power to act and the toughness to dull blowback. The fey orc decides quickly on what action because it is the will of the fey royalty. Therefore a lack of concern for the consequences to mortal races is present. Cross a fey queen and you might see one of these if she wants you dead.

 

[Bawylie]

It all boils down to free will. Who got it and who did not. Depending on the setting and personnal tastes, an orc might not have much to say about his free will. Where in an other setting, the orc could be a devout paladin of lawful good. The same logic could be assigned to any races in a setting. I know a DM in which all elves must be good or they turn into drops and are thus removed from play as a player character. They become in essence NPC. A bit extreme to my tastes but it works quite well for his group and they are happy about it.

I, for one, do not mind the occasional exception to the rule but a good aligned orc will face mistrust and racism to a very high degree if I play in Greyhawk. If I play in Eberron, the same good orc will be a likable fellow that does not face racism or ostracism at all. In fact, he might even be a pillar of a community that is appreciated by all.

As I said, the setting is influences how the races should work. As Bawylie said, the only creatures that should not have a say on how they act in any setting are planar creatures. I could admit an exception here and there but it should be rare to the extreme and a physical change should imply the modification in behavior. Take the fallen angel for example. As they fall, their form is twisted to reflect the evil in their heart. Likewise, a reformed pitfiend should be transformed into a more reassuring appearance.

Yeah, as we get to things like Liches, Vampires, fallen angels - these things are all abominations. Virtually crimes against existence itself. (Speaking again about my own game world here). Some outside force changes their nature from what it was to what it is. And then they’re stuck on that.

A mortal that becomes immortal (in the case of vampirism, for instance) loses the mutability and will they once had and are thereafter governed by their nature. Same with a mortal who ascends into legend. Even in stories they lose the complexity of their mortality and are sung of as incorruptible super heroic.

Of course this makes mortality unique and precious and beautiful. Life itself being transitory. And because mortal creatures can transcend their nature in a way that nothing else can, of course they can be good or evil or lawful or criminal. They’re capable of anything. So they often draw attention from “greater powers” seeking to guide or steer or corrupt them.

Your game might not have that kind of cosmology, that’s cool too. Mine isn’t front-facing to my players, it just IS, and that helps me answer these questions about what’s evil and what’s not and whether it’s okay to be a good drow (fey aren’t mortals to me).

Anyone else approach it like this?

 

[Reynard]

It's an interesting topic but ultimately a futile one: as humans, we can't actually imagine how it is to think -- aka "be" -- like another being. That's why we anthropomorphize everything. Which is ultimately what everyone in a fantasy setting would do. The humans would think that elves think like humans h=with longer lives and the elves would think humans think like elves with shorter lives. it gets even weirder when you start talking about dragons, beholders and elementals.

The real alien ones would be any telepathic species. In our real world, each mind is a closed off island. We don't actually know -- can't actually know -- that anyone else thinks. Not just "like us" but at all. It leads to some very weird, interesting places in philosophy but also fuels a lot of the nuance of human interaction (both personal and more broadly social). A psychic species would actually KNOW another creature has a mind. That itself is deeply weird to really contemplate.

 

[Bawylie]

It's an interesting topic but ultimately a futile one: as humans, we can't actually imagine how it is to think -- aka "be" -- like another being. That's why we anthropomorphize everything. Which is ultimately what everyone in a fantasy setting would do. The humans would think that elves think like humans h=with longer lives and the elves would think humans think like elves with shorter lives. it gets even weirder when you start talking about dragons, beholders and elementals.

The real alien ones would be any telepathic species. In our real world, each mind is a closed off island. We don't actually know -- can't actually know -- that anyone else thinks. Not just "like us" but at all. It leads to some very weird, interesting places in philosophy but also fuels a lot of the nuance of human interaction (both personal and more broadly social). A psychic species would actually KNOW another creature has a mind. That itself is deeply weird to really contemplate.

I disagree. Imagining, dreaming, and then achieving the impossible is one of the things human beings do regularly. Space travel, for example.

 

[Minigiant]

Anyone else approach it like this?

I'd imagine that any method for a mortal to become immortal warps their mind and soul to the point that they are no longer a member of their race.

It's an interesting topic but ultimately a futile one: as humans, we can't actually imagine how it is to think -- aka "be" -- like another being. That's why we anthropomorphize everything. Which is ultimately what everyone in a fantasy setting would do. The humans would think that elves think like humans h=with longer lives and the elves would think humans think like elves with shorter lives. it gets even weirder when you start talking about dragons, beholders and elementals.

The real alien ones would be any telepathic species. In our real world, each mind is a closed off island. We don't actually know -- can't actually know -- that anyone else thinks. Not just "like us" but at all. It leads to some very weird, interesting places in philosophy but also fuels a lot of the nuance of human interaction (both personal and more broadly social). A psychic species would actually KNOW another creature has a mind. That itself is deeply weird to really contemplate.

I disagree. Not all methods of alternate thought are so alien that a human cannot imagine it. The mindset of a CE demon might be very different from a home but it's not to complex to understand.

 

[Reynard]

I disagree. Imagining, dreaming, and then achieving the impossible is one of the things human beings do regularly. Space travel, for example.

I'm not sure what that has to do alien psychology.

 

[Reynard]

I disagree. Not all methods of alternate thought are so alien that a human cannot imagine it. The mindset of a CE demon might be very different from a home but it's not to complex to understand.

Well, that's exactly what we are discussing isn't it? If you can describe that being as CE then you aren't talking about an "alien" mind at all. You just talking about a person that thinks differently than you do.

 

[jasper]

To me humanoid is a target description and we can just throw a rubber mask on Bob, and other make up to film the movie.

 

[Minigiant]

Well, that's exactly what we are discussing isn't it? If you can describe that being as CE then you aren't talking about an "alien" mind at all. You just talking about a person that thinks differently than you do.

The point is some of this mindsets might not be incomprehensible.
So like aberrations might be.
But afiend might be easier to comprehend than a person ask they default to evil if not bound to laws, promises, or survival instincts.

 

[Reynard]

The point is some of this mindsets might not be incomprehensible.
So like aberrations might be.
But afiend might be easier to comprehend than a person ask they default to evil if not bound to laws, promises, or survival instincts.

And if those minds are comprehensible they are just human minds with cultural differences.

One of those "alien" aspects that people underplay are big differences in intelligence. Like, a low int creature might not be "stupid" but instead think so differently that they can't comprehend certain ideas. For example, no matter how hard you try, you can never teach a chimpanzee algebra because the actual physical brain structure of a chimp does not allow for the sort of mathematical abstract thought required by algebra. Our shorthand for that is "chimps aren't as smart as people" but in reality it's actually "chimps have an alien mindset." Now consider how closely related we are and then think about other smart creatures, from elephants to cuttlefish, and try and figure out how they think. Similarly, how would a vastly "superior" intelligence think? Could we even hope to communicate with one?

It's much easier, and frankly more fun, to consider that most of the things we run into in D&D think essentially like us. It facilitates play and allows for recognizable stories. But "it's CE" is not an alien mindset; it is a flavor of human mindset.